Independent Thinking - CM revisited

    • Gold Top Dog
    For me, it's not the trainers themselves necessarily, it's the attitudes of *some* of their followers. I have found that I am actually less likely to go watch the show and buy the book because of some of the things that I have seen on idog then I was before idog


    I agree with this 100%.  When I actually watch DW I feel quite kindly disposed towards CM most of the time.  10 minutes in the CM section on a bad day and I'm thinking "What an idiot - I'm never watching that programme again!!"

    I also do not like the way it says "dont try this at home" BUT he ALSO says "you too can be a good pack leader!"  And all his followers are definately not saying "don't try this at home" - they usually say the opposite. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    espencer I don't agree.  I don't ask my dogs for another behavior, I ask them to stop what they are doing that I don't like. 

    Tyler likes to open the gate on the deck and take a stroll.  Not safe at the moment with a major road construction detour going down my road......so I tied the gate shut.  Tyler likes to UNTIE the gate.[:@]   It takes nothing more than an "eh eh" for him to stop.  I am not asking him to sit, stay, down, or anything else.  I don't care WHAT he does on the confines of the deck, just so long as he doesnt open the gate and leave.  My "eh eh" correction is totally different from what I see with CM and what I see people THINKING that CM would do.  Now Tyler is an independent thinker and a darned smart little spit.......so I'm probably not going to trust that he won't try to open that gate when he thinks that I'm not looking.  I'm not gonna slap a shock collar on him to change the behavior....I'm gonna keep an eye on him when he's on the deck.  There are corrections and then there are corrections.  I opt for the softer ones.

     
    CM does also what you do, your "eh eh" correction is what he does here so as you see CM and you are not that different sometimes [;)]
     
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPpIOUCDdUw[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow!  He doesn't get out much, eh?  Is he talking of problems such as leash reactivity, fear aggression and such? 


    He also said that the "positive" trainers will NOT take on different types of training nor will they take on a dog's problems.

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    ...But, just a gentle reminder -  this is intended as a place where people can freely disagree with anything CM does, or anything they see on the show.


    I am not disagreeing but I do want to be convinced and I think this is a good thread to substantiate all the negative comments I have read on this forum in the past.  To borrow from an 80's Wendy's Hamburger commercial and the line that made Clara Peller famous, "Where's the beef?"

    ORIGINAL:  spiritdogs

    When I used CM style stuff, I had dogs that wouldn't come to me - one of them died because of it.  Now, I have dogs that come bounding to me with joy (even the hound).  Which would you choose?


    I can only assume that we are talking about recall and that being the most important command a dog can learn in order to keep the dog safe.  Regardless of who the Behaviorist/Trainer that the owner selected and how many techniques are applied, it is critical that the command be proofed in all situation.  Whatever works has to be the best for a particular dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Eh eh is where the similarity ends, espencer.
     
    We've had a few not so friendly comments here, but in general, everyone is doing a great job of keeping this thread civil.
    • Gold Top Dog
    JM--that book is super scary! And I mean super here!
     
    I think I'm going to open another thread on that book alone!
    • Gold Top Dog
    with +R techiniques the dog needs to stop being rude AND do other behavior that the owner is telling him to do

     
    So, are you saying that clicker training provides more control than traditional methods?[:D]
     
    Bad Ron, bad, bad Ron.
    [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: JM
    Believe it or not, even the word submissive creeps me out. I am not for sure why. Maybe it is because I associate it with a different time...women were supposed to be submissive to their husbands...children were supposed to be submissive to adults.

    It feels out dated and old fashioned. I looked it up and it means "humbly obediant".


    This reminded me of a politically correct dictionary where a housewife is now a 'Domestic Engineer', bald is 'Comb-free', insane people are 'Selectively perceptive mental explorers', and trees are 'oxygen exchange units'.

    And submissive is ...


    [sm=party1.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Common sense would have dictated a change in method was in order way before death occurred.


    I don't think I've ever had a more tasteless comment directed at me.  You don't know the circumstances, nor would I now bother explaining **Content Removed**.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This reminded me of a politically correct dictionary where a housewife is now a 'Domestic Engineer', bald is 'Comb-free', insane people are 'Selectively perceptive mental explorers', and trees are 'oxygen exchange units'.

    And submissive is ...

     
    I'm having a hard time making a connection here between these totally out-there examples you chose and the word "submissive." And no, I don't want this thread to get ugly--but to be frank, there is no connection between those examples and submissive.
     
    Submissive draws connotations. Simple as that.
    • Gold Top Dog
    **Content Removed**. You know, the deal about the Koehler methods is that it DID bring about abuse. I'm not kidding about his book, written by him. I need to pull a few lines together for another post (and I'll give Koehler full credit).

    Again--when you know better you do better. And when you stop physically making the dog behave, you've already done better.

    Thanks for the honesty, Anne. After having had an "accident" with my own dog, I know what you mean.
    • Gold Top Dog
    **Content Removed**

    *Edited to remove the original comment.*
    • Gold Top Dog
    Couldn't possibly train a dog to herd with the use of clickers either - now there's a whole Yahoo group devoted to it (Clickherd).


    I've been on Clickherd since it started (2003) and in all that time no one has really come up with a satisfactory way to incorporate the clicker beyond the basics and really pin pointed troubleshooting. I know of absolutely no one who trains working stockdogs with anything even approaching a purely positive methodology. There's a couple people giving clinics who claim to be clicker training herding, but I've seen rakes and rattle paddles heavily in action in pictures and videos from those clinics.

    Sorry, but there are aspects of this type of work that require that the dog learn to understand the correct way to handle pressure. One of the big reasons this is so, is that the stock don't stand around and "wait for something good to happen." They put on the pressure themselves if the dog is wrong, and when a sheep or cow "corrects" your dog, your dog's well-being might be in danger (and possibly yours). You can't stand around and wait for that to happen. It's far better that a fair and clear correction come from you to define the boundaries of what is appropriate.

    A lot of the early discussion on Clickherd was about setting up situations so that the stock and the dog were actually physically seperated, because of this. But the problem is that if the stock are in sight, but not accessible, that is in itself an aversive situation to a dog with good instincts. If the dog is being worked with no stock at all, the dog learns nothing but mechanical movements in response to commands, which are only about 5% of what the dog needs to know to be effective at controlling stock.

    Someone suggested that the working world and the world of companion dogs are so far removed that there are no parallels between the training applications. I beg to differ. If that were true then retired working dogs would make terrible housepets: always dull and shut down and scared to move a muscle since there's no stock around.

    It's the exact opposite, in fact, for dogs that are trained with independent working habits in mind. Lassie is a great paradigm for what everyday life is like with a working trained dog. You never really have to say much to the dog, but they are always right there with you without being told. You don't have to "proof" the dog every time you enter a new situation, because the dog possesses both independent thought and impulse control - they will "check in" to see how you handle new situations and cue off you what is expected.

    Like Gus working that single sheep when I turned towards it to catch it. Gus is like that in the house too. He's a tremendously lively character, and I'm sure that almost all the dogs Jack Knox trains himself are like that - the ones I've seen all have been. Jack's "method" starts when the pup is not even out of the whelping box. In fact, 90% of his training is done before the pup has legs long enough to go around the sheep. And that training would apply just as well to the home.

    Pup needs three things no matter what he does, according to him. He needs to know his name, he needs to know what NO means, and he needs to know that his place is with you. The name is taught positively with praise, attention, and petting. No means any correction, and you start right away. You don't like something, you find a correction that works with pup and use it. Then you back off until pup responds to the most subtle correction. After that, you can walk away and if pup doesn't follow, you say, "GYP!" and if pup doesn't follow you say "Hey!" If you stay consistent with this, you'll have a pup that you rarely need a recall and never need a leash (remember we're talking herding breeds here of course, though I've taught this to my Maremma and my Chinese crested, too).

    The dog that follows you around after this approach to training isn't skulking and timid. These dogs are thinking, calm, and ready for anything life has to throw at them. I've seen this type of training transform a fearful dog into calm, open-minded relaxation. Within a few seconds, too. I just had a friend who took her dog to a lesson with Jack. She's been working on a severe fear of men with this dog for three years. Jack did his "thing" and the dog was happily and calmly following him around off leash within five minutes. That was BEFORE they went to the sheep. I've seen this over and over - and the owners will later say that the confidence lasted.

    That's not to say that reward-based training is out to lunch. I use a lot of it to build confidence, to communicate clearly when I am over the moon about something, to reinforce something offered out of the blue. My reinforcement tends to be very laid back and customized to the dog in question. Some dogs can't stand a lot of fuss - a quiet, "That's it!" or "Atta boy!" is sufficient for them. My Ben dog on the other hand has a whole range of praise words he keys off of - verbal praise is his greatest reinforcer so I reserve the jackpot phrases for something really terrific or to bolster his confidence when things get rough - if he hears "Good!" he knows he got something right. If he hears, "Good BOY!" he gets much more excited. And I will sometimes end a training session with "HAPPY PUPPY!" which he loves to hear and will get me a huge vertical body slam (Ben stands over my head when he rears upright).

    I think it's a mistake to think that it has to be all one or all the other in this discussion, among fairly experienced dog handlers and owners. I'd prefer casual companion dog owners learned methods that are positively based primarily, simply because there's less potential for harm in that direction. The "thing" that Jack does with fearful dogs is really, really hard to get right - for every one correction that is easy to see, there are half a dozen encouraging, positive signals that are almost impossible to pick up on (and only having seen a couple clips of CM, I wonder whether that's true of him too). But I don't think people ought to be told that there's no place in a dog's world for correction, either. NO can be as useful a tool as the clicker, and I think it IS more appropriate in some situations.

    ETA: A quote from our Grand Old Man of sheepdog literature, Don McCaig:

    People often wonder just what trainers give the sheepdog in exchange for its boundless willingness. Food treats and praise sit on the trainer's shelf, untouched, unused. The sheepdog is shown its possibilities, he learns what life is like for a good dog and is invited to walk in a rational world whose farthest boundaries are defined by grace.


    ---- Donald McCaig, Nop's Hope
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would hope that the comment being found offensive would be removed by the poster.  We're adults and I'd rather not have to edit anyone myself.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd prefer casual companion dog owners learned methods that are positively based primarily, simply because there's less potential for harm in that direction.

     
    That's the key for me, Becca. I know my grandparents bought BC after BC and sent them away to be trained on stock. Sometimes it worked, most times it didn't. The expectations there seem, to me, far different than the expectations of having a dog who doesn't jump on people or pull on leashes.
     
    And I still say that reading some of the old dog training books lets every reader think that she, too, can give a meaningful correction when she sees fit. Koehler's reasoning--Better to give a dog some pain in order to gain a reward in the end.
     
    If an owner can't figure out how to better train her dog to NOT jump on people than just to knee it "so it matters," then how much problem-solving thinking is she doing as an owner? That's what I keep coming back to. For me, correction-based training (not saying you do that, of course. I'm focused on telling the dog "no" as often as you can) is about what the dog cannot do--not about teaching the dog what she can do. They learn what the can do by the elimination process. Correct for pulling the dog learns that not pulling is acceptable. Correct for bolting out the door the dog learns that anything but bolting is acceptable. In another thread the OP stated that "tentative owners" have fearful dogs. That sounds suspiciously like Koehler talking to me. I would have hoped we've come further as a society by now.
     
    That type of thinking and training is all too prevalent still. And I, for one, having read CM's book and watched a few of his shows, and took the CM-like class, see that CM is pretty much a Koehler man.
     
    PS--I'd be a liar if I said that I don't give corrections, but mine are like Glenda's--the "eh eh" or a stronger word and always a redirect. And the words work for me. They take longer than a knee to the dog's chest might (or maybe they don't), but they work. Mostly, though, I try to do the least amount possible--not a 50/50 deal at all in my house.