Independent Thinking - CM revisited

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

  I would think that my post proved that. 

What do you call 3 out of three ?  A home run? Strike?

Trust me...I was not looking for this stuff.  Unlike yourself,  I stay out of the dog world crap.... I will admit to being a coward and I try like hell to avoid anything that even looks like abuse...because I cannot deal with it.


Also DPU...I wouldn't consider you an "average person"...(cough)..my gawd man, you do rescues...can you imagine what the world would be like if you were considered "average"???

Oh yeah...I want to live in a world where the average person houses up to  5 or more rescues at a time. show me the door DPU...cause I wanna live there too.

Puleeeeezzee...

  I have not seen the exaggerated evils that everyone talks about and even if they exist doesn't mean me or any other average person is going to do it. .  

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

...I think that those on the forum who come here for information need to hear the other side of the CM story somewhere so that they can make an informed choice, or hear what others are doing that may work well for their dogs...

And I think the forum Administrators has accomplished just that by creating very visible Subject Categories so that informed choices can be made.  You don't need to serve tea and crumpets to win anyone over.  The choice will ultimately be decided by the dog owner based on knowing the dog. 

ORIGINAL: ron2

...They are as objective an observation as I can make and let the chips fall where they may, while, at the same time, not wanting to be contentious or argumentative...

 
Ron2, your post was fair.  But, often members jump to the conclusion that a poster is being contentious or argumentative (both words are the same) when in fact it is an attempt to draw out more substantive information.  You have been afforded time and practice to get where you are today.  Why should others of less strength  be forced into one way or another.
 
 

That other section is for those who support CM. Dissension is not welcome. Nor do I have the energy or time to argue. And the conclusions that I draw are not to "get me on the good side" of Spiritdogs or NFowler or Houndlove. They are as objective an observation as I can make and let the chips fall where they may, while, at the same time, not wanting to be contentious or argumentative.

 
Oh man, Ron! C'mon . . . I never get a break these days . . .  (just kidding)
 
For DPU--
 
I promised, so here's the shortened version. The CM class I took was NOT a training class; anything "training-wise" the dog learned their was incidental. It was about being a leader and being a calm and assertive one. So, in that class, we learned to massage certain areas of the dog's face and neck that forced them to acknowledge us as leaders. We had signs of this acknowlegment that we looked for--and that we had to have in order to build up to the next step. The idea is that many of these dogs are from the pound and they haven't had a leader they trusted. Some of the dogs were just dominant and bossy and needed to learn that being calm and submissive was the way to go.
 
We learned to master "The Walk" and we practiced in front of each other and got praise or advice on how to improve it. We learned the signs of a dominant dog--as well as the dog who wasn't acknowledging you as their leader--as well as a submissive dog--and the dog who knew you were their leader. A dog with a good leader and a dog who trusted his leader had very few issues. Becoming a leader was mandatory. Your dog should be checking with you A LOT, especially if he was about to make a decision on his own. Making a decision is a leader's job, not a follower, so I make decisions, not my dog. Their job is to look at me to see what I want to do.
 
We learned that we didn't HAVE to tell our dogs "Let's go" to begin walking--they should be paying attention to me as a leader--no matter what, and 24/7.
 
In a nutshell, here's what you could expect to come away with: they could learn to quit pulling because pulling isn't their job--paying attention to you was. (Had nothing to do with heeling or not wanting your arm ripped out of your socket.) They learned to not bolt out doors because, yes, their job wasn't to be the leader--that's yours. Their job is to pay attention to you. We learned to use body blocks for this, and we used them for The Walk and other things, too. Sitting and being down were very good things for them to do because sitting and being down are submissive ositions. Standing shows you that your dog doesn't trust you; being down, especially being down, means he does.  
 
And that's about what we learned. There were a few more things, but that's the gist of it. I notice now that my male, who took the class twice (it didn't seem to "take" with him very well, which was more than frustrating to me and to my instructor, too), is very confident of his abilities to take on something new. He loves to do something new now. He's very fast and he's an incredibly fast learner. My female, on the other hand, thinks that the best choice for her, when faced with a new task to learn, is to be calm and submissive and wait for me to tell her what I want. It drives me crazy that they are opposites, which is why I said what I said earlier about my female. I want her doing something but if she doesn't know exactly what it is, she does an immediate Drop and stays like that for as long as she can. I am very hands off with her now and I really suscribe to the notion that "I'll let my dog decide to learn" because she is very much the "shut down" dog. She will forgo treats and everything and just stay there, super still. (Very odd and breaks my heart.)
 
It's funny because I had this old old old man tell me that he watches me work my dogs and he knows when my female is having "free" walk time and when she is working because of her tail. When she's working, he said, her tail drops low and when she's having free time, taking treats and playing with her ball, her tail is high.
 
He told me this some time ago, before her surgery, when I was working with her on The Walk. Now my goal is to have her tail higher when she's working. I hit a sweet spot with her on Sunday and though it didn't last for more than a minute, it lasted longer than it ever has since enrolling in that CM class. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 
I'll PM you a link to the training sites.
 

ORIGINAL: JM

Also DPU...I wouldn't consider you an "average person"...(cough)..my gawd man, you do rescues...can you imagine what the world would be like if you were considered "average"???

 
All the shelters would be empty. 

I have to be of the "first do no harm" attitude about any form of living with dogs, including training. I'd rather see a dog pull on a leash than one that is afraid to pull on a leash. I'd rather see a dog shamelessly beg at the table (and do any have shame?) than be afraid to approach the table.
 
That said, I'm not opposed to the use of a prong collar with some dogs in some circumstances. I will also physically move my dogs on occasion. An example is bed. If I go to bed and a dog is in my spot, I'll wake them, gently pet them for a bit and then scoot them over. It causes no problems with these dogs that know and trust me, but I wouldn't do it with a strange dog. With a strange dog, I'd head for the kitchen. That sure doesn't sound very "alpha", but I'd rather be a human.  Why wouldn't they prefer to be woken up gently rather than abruptly ordered off the bed?
 
CM's show IMO is based far more on drama than teaching JQP how to live with their dogs. Yes, there are warnings about don't try this at home, but people do. It seems like some people tend to take CM as a quick fix and use things like "the claw" rather than taking the best part of his work which is exercise.
 
Those are just some quick thoughts.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

It's funny because I had this old old old man tell me

I hope this "old old old man" was not somebody in their 50's.  []

Thank you Nfowler,
The very first paragraph is exactly how we started out in my Clicker class.  The rest was everything I would expect from a CM class...based on what I have read. and have seen on this forum.

I am interested in the site to see what credentials or background the instructors had to perform these sessions.

I'm relieved to see no blood shed here.  Yet.
 
On a personal level.......what I don't like about CM is not so much his methods, although I don't care for those at all....but the pervasiveness of his "ways".  I'm on the front lines, so to speak, in fostering, since I have final refusal on prospective homes.  I did an event at one of the local big box pet stores a few weeks ago and in talking with prospective homes part of the spiel is to suggest a range of trainers, all of whom are +R based.  I would say that 2/3's of the folks I chatted with brought up CM and brought up the idea that they wouldn't NEED a trainer or class because, gosh, the dogs get some training in foster homes and isn't that enough?  And can't I just do what CM does?  One gent and I had a very animated discussion with him insisting that you MUST show a dog who's boss from day one and detailing to me exactly how he does just that.  He was interested in a small terrier mix and had already picked up his choke chain.  I work with this particular rescue because they think the way I think and I'm comfortable with their philosophies.  So I was not speaking out of turn in that discussion.  He was adamant that you could NOT train a german shepherd to walk off lead, forget to walk off lead in the WOODS.  His way was the OLD way, but had been reinforced by CM.

Glenmar, your personal experience say 2/3rds of people you talk with know CM and I never hear his name mentioned.  One of my fosters wear the Illusion collar and everyone ask what that is.  So we have a CM conversation starter.  Believe me if anyone brought up CM I would question them how they apply his philosphy.  So whats the truth?  What is CM's audience reach?  How many actually care.  Is it all hype?  If there is a wrong how do I get convinced.  I can't advocate the cause unless I see it, and believe me you want me on your advocacy side

I don't have hard numbers.  I'm guessing the only way to get said numbers would be to contact an advertising agency that handles national accounts.  THEY would have the Neilson data at their fingertips, literally.
 
There are several folks in my office who at the very least discuss CM.  Like or not I don't know, when they start talking CM, I walk away.

Maybe, DPU, you should bring up "leadership" and the need for calm and submissive dogs. You might find that people know that. I was doing CM before he become all the rage here in my state . . .

Believe  it or not, even the word submissive creeps me out. I am not for sure why.  Maybe it is because I associate it with a different time...women were supposed to be submissive to their husbands...children were supposed to be submissive to adults.

It feels out dated and old fashioned. I looked it up and it means "humbly obediant".

I would think if anything or anyone is humbly obediant, then it has given up something within itself. There is no independant thinking, no independent action.

I mean really...is this what people want from their dogs?

ORIGINAL: JM

I would think if anything or anyone is humbly obediant, then it has given up something within itself. There is no independant thinking, no independent action.

I mean really...is this what people want from their dogs?

 
Hi JM, if you think about it, its a two way street.  I am very submissive to my dogs.  When dogs want out to p and poop, I obey, When the dogs want food and water, I bow to them.  And of course there is that hound Marvin, who gets into trouble and then presents those hound eyes.  I always cave.

I checked out a real "gem" yesterday (as I said earlier in this thread), William Koehler's book. OMG. That's all I have to say. He talks about "whaling" on the dog, "spanking" the dog for a "good five minutes" and also about how strong a deterrent is or should be. Amazing stuff. I mean, amazing.
 
So much of what he does resembles what CM does (to me). Amazing for me to read the methods and then see them on TV. He believes in lots of pops to tell the dog that no means no.
 
BTW, I'm sure his book is in most libraries. I wonder how often it gets checked out. It's bizarre for sure, though it shouldn't be for me--I paid for classes that bordered on this! And these methods are often touted as the "last-chance" ones. There's an endorsement for Koehler that said that he, and he alone, saves dogs deemed for gas chambers. Hmm--just like another special trainer I know . . .
 
Also, did you know he trained the dogs for the original Disney movie, The Incredible Journey? Yeah, he did.

Believe it or not, even the word submissive creeps me out. I am not for sure why. Maybe it is because I associate it with a different time...women were supposed to be submissive to their husbands...children were supposed to be submissive to adults.

It feels out dated and old fashioned. I looked it up and it means "humbly obediant".

I would think if anything or anyone is humbly obediant, then it has given up something within itself. There is no independant thinking, no independent action.

I mean really...is this what people want from their dogs?

 
I agree with you. I prefer that my dogs be polite and that we demonstrate respect for each other.