Independent Thinking - CM revisited

If you have a television show, you have more responsibility to illustrate the better things. 
 
Everyone knows that disclaimers and fine print are all things we do to get us off of the hook, legally.  In reality, you still may be sued.
 
If you are reaching out to the public in such a large way, you are assuming a lot of responsibility, whether or not you want to admit that.  Ignoring that, is part of the exploitation that occurs all of the time in the world. The more people you reach, the more intense the subject matter and it's effects

ORIGINAL: dogslife

If you are reaching out to the public in such a large way... The more people you reach, the more intense the subject matter and it's effects

I tried to find CM audience reach but to no avail.  Do you know his audience size?.  Honestly in my circle, CM is never mentioned.  The only hype I see for him is on this forum and by the most unlikely people.

That's why he has Inc after his business name.  Which means...you can sue the company but not the individual. His personal assets will never be touched as there is an insurance that covers the "Inc"

What does that this tell you but CYA?  Maybe he knows the liability involved.  Someone has to for him to have an Inc .

ORIGINAL: dogslife

If you have a television show, you have more responsibility to illustrate the better things. 

Everyone knows that disclaimers and fine print are all things we do to get us off of the hook, legally.  In reality, you still may be sued.

If you are reaching out to the public in such a large way, you are assuming a lot of responsibility, whether or not you want to admit that.  Ignoring that, is part of the exploitation that occurs all of the time in the world. The more people you reach, the more intense the subject matter and it's effects

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

All I can say is that people have been jerking and hitting their dogs for years, only NOW it's CM's fault. My first experience with dog training was Woodhouse-style 4-H dog training classes I took as a 12 year old kid more than 20 years ago - when CM was still a nobody in Mexico. From that experience to to the obedience classes I took with Lucy just last summer very little has changed in my area of the country. CM's style of training is much more humane that what is still being taught to most 4-H kids for the country fair dog show.

If we want to end abuse in the name of dog training, we need to start with the worst offenders, and from the little of what I've seen, CM doesn't even come close. His celebrity just makes him an easier target. Why bash methods by trainers who are dead or are only known to dog professionals when we can bash a guy that everyone who has watched Oprah knows.

That being said - I wouldn't do a lot of the things CM does. But I also wouldn't do many of the things Donaldson does. I don't think CM's techniques are "one-size-fits-all" any more than clicker-training is. I'm learning as I go along, and I think Lucy has taught me as much as any of the dozens of dog-training books and shows that I've read or watched.

 
[sm=bravo.gif]

what kind of evidence would you accept DPU?  all I have are personal observations (and conversations with) of people coming in for basic obedience class, observations of people at dog events, observations of people at the dog parks and pet stores. The basic obedience teachers at our dog club are in despair over the show's effect on beginner students.
 
and yeah, jenhuedepohl, I agree, people have been dominating and rolling and beating dogs for years. But there was a period of time, starting early nineties, where we all seemed to be moving away from the sort-of-effective "dominate the dog" based methods of training, or at least many people were moving away from them, towards highly effective modern behavioral modification techniques. And then CM's show appeared and at least from my perspective it was like we were hurled decades backwards in knowledge. Even now most rofessional dog folks pay no attention to the show, it's the regular uneducated public who have seized upon it. CM puts a particular "flavor" on his version of the "dominate the dog" such that it's pretty easy to pick out people trying to emulate him. For instance, you NEVER saw people making weird "sssss" noises at dogs until recently.  

Tis true....  He didn't bring anything new to the table, unlike most influential trainers who have received national recognition....

He fancied  up some catch phrases...for old techniques.  That is all he has done.  But...he televised it.

"All I can say is that people have been jerking and hitting their dogs for years, only NOW it's CM's fault."

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

backwards in knowledge.

 
Going with an older technique does not mean going backwards, and newer not always means better
 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Even now most rofessional dog folks pay no attention to the show

 
Maybe the ones you know, i know others that actually watch the show

I dunno Spence...look at Emma Parsons and Ali Brown...they broke new ground.  Big new ground.

Maybe the moral of the story is...leave it to a woman?

 [sm=headbang2.gif]

I love this smiley

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

what kind of evidence would you accept DPU?  all I have are personal observations (and conversations with) of people coming in for basic obedience class, observations of people at dog events, observations of people at the dog parks and pet stores. The basic obedience teachers at our dog club are in despair over the show's effect on beginner students.

 
It is just hard for me to believe because I think people hang around each other that think alike.  So +R people should always be around +R people.  Please tell me what percent are your negative observations out of the your total observation, ballpark number.
 
Maybe the beginner students at the dog club are like me and ask questions, a whole lot of questions. 

I still can't get over JM being a woman!! [] Holy. I, too, thought you were a man!!
 
Nice point, Dogslife. Nice point.
 
BTW, I just checked out a 1st edition Koehler book for fun and man, can I just say the language of that book versus this new one by Dale Stavroff (watch out, Espence, it's called Let the Dog Decide) is amazing--and amazingly funny.
[linkhttp://www.precisiondogs.com/]http://www.precisiondogs.com/[/link]
 
I'll post a few fun lines from the old Koehler book later . . .  

I want to approach this thread from a slightly different tack. It was meant to be a thread where you can freely disagree with or call into question some of all of CM's methods, not a thread in which to defend CM. There's a whole section for that.
 
Anyway, so I have a dog with sled dog ancestry and I can get him to heel without using corrective collars or popping the id collar that he wears. In fact, I always walk him in harness except for the few steps from house to vehicle. I did it with a clicker and treats. It would be nice to see CM do that. I started clicker training in January and CM's been with dogs most of his life. So, my qualm with the show is that there doesn't appear to be a real understanding or explanation of all training methods. And I realize that he is billed as a dog behavior specialist but some of the problems are ordinary problems, such as pulling on a leash, not necessarily a red zone problem. So, instead of leash corrections and insistence on the position of dog behind the human, why not try the less pushy method of +R. If a half day can be edited into 8 minutes, a week could be condensed into 30 minutes, with the highlights of the work and an explanation of the process.
 
I don't hate CM nor do I feel that he is "bad." But, IMHO, there are other ways to try that do not rely on brute force. Also, forcing a dog into a situation full of triggers without training in place is, IMO, foolhardy. How can you command an incompatible behavior to the behavior that you don't want, if you haven't trained that behavior? As in the wild, a scruff and pin works for that moment, only. A dog will only behave around others if it is rewarding to do so.
 
Nor do I dispute all of his successes. Also, I think a lot of his success in these initial meetings is that the dog doesn't know him and has yet to assess his rank. So, he's able to come in and establish his own position and the dog will accept it, as any change in the pack structure changes the dynamic. So, the methods shown appear to work, but not all dogs, IMHO, need the strong arm treatment.

ORIGINAL: ron2

I want to approach this thread from a slightly different tack. It was meant to be a thread where you can freely disagree with or call into question some of all of CM's methods, not a thread in which to defend CM. There's a whole section for that.

It is not fair to say that those who are asking for some foundation or evidence are consider CM defenders.  You must know me by now to not be the case.  I have not seen the exaggerated evils that everyone talks about and even if they exist doesn't mean me or any other average person is going to do it.  Plus, I believe the OP said the discussion should not be limited to CM but can be inclusive of others. 
 
The title of the thread is Independent Thinking and that is what should take place.  

Independent Thinking and that is what should take place

 
Many ways to define that, I suppose. But independent thinking would imply, at times, having opinions that don't always sit well with others. Sometimes, in other threads in that other section, questioning CM or disagreeing with his method is taken as an attack. So, often these days, if I disagree with a method, rather than disagree or counterpoint there, I will post an alternative thread, here. Independent thinkers, (and I think we are all thinking people) can read both and draw their own conclusions. That other section is for those who support CM. Dissension is not welcome. Nor do I have the energy or time to argue. And the conclusions that I draw are not to "get me on the good side" of Spiritdogs or NFowler or Houndlove. They are as objective an observation as I can make and let the chips fall where they may, while, at the same time, not wanting to be contentious or argumentative.
 
And, true, DPU, I never doubt that what concerns you is the facts or results, popular or unpopular. You have an uncanny ability to concentrate and focus.

ORIGINAL: ron2

It would be nice to see CM do that. I started clicker training in January and CM's been with dogs most of his life. So, my qualm with the show is that there doesn't appear to be a real understanding or explanation of all training methods. And I realize that he is billed as a dog behavior specialist but some of the problems are ordinary problems, such as pulling on a leash, not necessarily a red zone problem. So, instead of leash corrections and insistence on the position of dog behind the human, why not try the less pushy method of +R.

Well because +R is not an area that he practices, like asking a swimming coach how to get better with a baseball bat, both are sports but one is different than the other, is like me wondering Ian Dunbar does not do what CM's does, well thats because Ian decided other approach, i personally dont likes Ian's approach but not because of that i would like him to change what he does best []

ORIGINAL: ron2

How can you command an incompatible behavior to the behavior that you don't want, if you haven't trained that behavior?

Because the dog does not need to do a new behavior instead, the dog just needs to stop the current behavior and nothing else, the dog will need a couple times to realize that what he is doing is not allowed, he is free to do anything else that he wants instead, after a couple times the dog wont do it again even if you are not there

Because the dog does not need to do a new behavior instead, the dog just needs to stop the current behavior and nothing else,

I disagree with you on that but then this would become a disagreement of our viewpoints, rather than a chance for people to express their misgivings or doubts about CM. You are always welcome to your viewpoint and have the right to state it.

You don't have to defend CM here nor am I not defending him. I think everyone should watch a few of his shows or read one of his books, as well as read the other books and watch the other shows and they will draw their own conclusions, as it should be.

Granted, some people may have a more emotional expression than mine. And like DPU, I don't mind an open-ended debate where ideas can be examined back and forth. Just be mindful that though you have to right to express an opinion in favor or defense of CM, others have the right to express a dissension with him. At least in this part of the forum.

And my opinion is just that, an opinion. CM has done some incredible things. The follow up with the Jindo was surprising because I expected him to have been PTS.

I don't see it so much as an "us vs. them" thing. A trainer should have many abilities and methods. And if CM's methods are best suited for red zone dogs, then perhaps his show or method isn't meant for JQP, who don't have red zone dogs. That is, what might have been effective for the Korean Jindo isn't always needed for the soft dog that will do anything for a piece of cheese.