Independent Thinking - CM revisited

Mine would not shut down...he would retaliate.

No if ands or buts...no alpha, no pack, no energy, nor calm, assertive, nor submissive....none of the catch phrases would work here.

I have one of "those" dogs...that what kills me when I read some of the posts.  I think of lurkers...who may have a dog like mine...and worry about them trying some of CM's stuff.

If someone were to come at my dog with the dominant, alpha, I'm the boss of you attitude...trust me, they are going down.

I have tried to explain this to people on this board, and got the macho, ego and tough dog.tough guy thing....even though I am a girl.

My point is...my dog is not mean or tough or anything...but......he is a dog.

I know there are 100's of 1000's upon gazillions just like him.

I fully believe that dogs  understands fairness and operates accordingly.

How many have taken out a face during an alpha roll and are going to being killed?  How many are sick of the constant leash yanks and have attacked, and are going to be killed?   How many  have redirected their aggression and taken out a neck during a body block...and are going to be killed? (this one almost happened to me..Zeus missed my neck by an inch during a frenzy at the neigbor's sheperd...that I thought I was going to "block")

I see first hand, in my own neighborhood, the effects of CM.  And it ain't pretty. Just yesterday I was told of a roll where the dog screamed and cried.  I went to check on the neigbor and her sheperd and she was filling me in on CM's yank techniques.  The sheperd is so confused he is turning mad.

ETA..I forgot about the 2 pitt bulls who cowered in a corner when I came in, then rushed me from behind.  The person that took me there went ahead of me, acting all dominate, speakly loudly and firmly to the dogs... and told me" they need authority".

All in one evening folks...

And i forgot to add....sickening.  Totally sickening.

  Marvin would shut down at the sli

ghtest form of anything not positive. 

JM, I think you missed the key point of my post and that is to know the dog before any training or behavior modification starts.  All my training sessions are reward based.  It is prior to what happens to giving the reward that causes such disagreement.  I have no problem being patient and waiting for the dog to offer a behavior and then be rewarded.  I have no problem in touching a dog to shape a sit.  I have no problem doing corrections, physical or psychological.  The technique chosen depends on the dog and how much the dog trust me as the caretaker. 
 
 

My post was not so much about you and your methods.. but CM's...I just took your quote to build on my line of thinking.

But...I absolutely agree.  You have to know the dog.  I don't have to physically correct my dog to know that he would retaliate. Or roll him to find out that I would lose a good portion of my face.

The problem with CM is that one size fits all.  All catch phrases apply. Not so in the real world....maybe in tv land...


I think why I am so _emotionally_ into this topic today is because of the sickening abuse (and yes, it is abuse) that I saw and heard about yesterday evening.  With the sheperd, the pitts and hearing about the roll.

ETA>>>>>>Oh..and while I am at it....!!!!!!

 Even though CM says...do not try this at home blah blah blah...he also has at the end of his segements this little tidbit..."and you too can be a good pack leader..blah blah blah...

which in my book means....try these techniques at home, if it blows up in your face...don't blame me...

ORIGINAL: JM

... acting all dominate, speakly loudly and firmly to the dogs... and told me" they need authority".

I do not dismiss the emotional aspect of "last night", given that you were probably afraid because 2 Pitties rushed behind.  But, can you honestly admit that you have not done what is quoted, at least to some degree.  When I have 5 dogs totaling a weight of over 700 lbs sitting quietly in my backyard and all of a sudden a squirrel crosses over the telephone wire, and chaos begins, what do you think I or any other normal person would do?  Sit there and try to remember what treat trumps squirrel?

No, I wasn't afraid of the pitts.  They weren't fear biters...yet. They rushed me several times.  Most likely if I had shown fear, I would have been dog meat.

What bothered me, with all dogs concerned, was their anguished mental state...which clearly registered on their faces and in their eyes and actions.....

Intimidation  through fear....under the guise of authority, dominance, alpha....or whatever...is still intimidation through fear...and it is sickening.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: JM

... acting all dominate, speakly loudly and firmly to the dogs... and told me" they need authority".

I do not dismiss the emotional aspect of "last night", given that you were probably afraid because 2 Pitties rushed behind.  But, can you honestly admit that you have not done what is quoted, at least to some degree.  When I have 5 dogs totaling a weight of over 700 lbs sitting quietly in my backyard and all of a sudden a squirrel crosses over the telephone wire, and chaos begins, what do you think I or any other normal person would do?  Sit there and try to remember what treat trumps squirrel?

Misconceptions, misconceptions [8D]
 
And those include JM neighbors that think they know what they are doing because they showed it on TV but they dont have any idea at all, then of course people like JM comes and thinks that is actually how CM works but is not and thats how people start believing that CM is wrong
 
Put it thins way, you see a 6 years old doing Karate moves, when you ask him where did he see that he says "i saw Bruce Lee on TV", of course because he is 6 then his "Karate skills" are far even from being ok, would you be like "dang that Bruce Lee dude for sure is bad" or would you think the kid is not good just because he saw it on TV?

Spence...it is not what about JM thinks...it is about what the average JQP (or whatever)dog owner thinks.

That is the whole point.  It is not about me.  It is not about you. 

It is no longer about any of these things.

Actually, it is not even about CM anymore...it's about the effects...or is that affects?

ORIGINAL: JM

it's about the effects...or is that affects?

 
Agree 100% but we can stop those stupid people that think they know what they are doing, i'm with all of you when i see persons like those saying "i saw it on TV and works" and they have the poor dog pin down on the ground after the dog showed his teeth to somebody who was getting closer in an aggressive way to pet the dog

And those include JM neighbors that think they know what they are doing because they showed it on TV but they dont have any idea at all, then of course people like JM comes and thinks that is actually how CM works but is not and thats how people start believing that CM is wrong

 
so if a CM-promoted technique works, it was done right, but if it fails to work it was mysteriously not done right?  this is the attitude I can't stand. If CM's techniques are so difficult to replicate, then no one should be trying them and no one should be promoting or even showing them to the general public. I personally know of a dog that was euthanised after the owner decided to try CM's techniques and guess what, sweet little dog turned into terrified fear-biter. And all the CM-promoters have to say is "CM says do not try this at home". What can you say to that? 
 
I'm with JM, all around me I see dogs suffering because of this show's effect on dog owners in encouraging them to intimidate their dogs. It is indeed sickening.
 
 

No matter where we go with this.....

....we cannot escape the publics perception ( and use) of his techniques.

Misconceptions no longer cuts it. There is too much misconception going on.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
I personally know of a dog that was euthanised after the owner decided to try CM's techniques and guess what, sweet little dog turned into terrified fear-biter. And all the CM-promoters have to say is "CM says do not try this at home". What can you say to that? 

I'm with JM, all around me I see dogs suffering because of this show's effect on dog owners in encouraging them to intimidate their dogs. It is indeed sickening.

 
I do have to ask to show the evidence for both statements.  I live in Chicago, 2nd City and I don't see this at all and I am out in the dog world daily.

Cowering pitbulls, sheperds going mad, fear biters.. are just not something you take out into public or into 'the dog world'.

They are the ones being taken around the corner into the "sleeping" chamber.  You won't find them in Petco and Petsmart adoption activities.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
I personally know of a dog that was euthanised after the owner decided to try CM's techniques and guess what, sweet little dog turned into terrified fear-biter. And all the CM-promoters have to say is "CM says do not try this at home". What can you say to that? 

I'm with JM, all around me I see dogs suffering because of this show's effect on dog owners in encouraging them to intimidate their dogs. It is indeed sickening.

I do have to ask to show the evidence for both statements.  I live in Chicago, 2nd City and I don't see this at all and I am out in the dog world daily.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy


so if a CM-promoted technique works, it was done right, but if it fails to work it was mysteriously not done right? 

 
Not mysteriously, it was just not done right, period
 
If my neighbor grabs a cheff's knife and kills someone, should we ban all the cheff's knives so no one can do the same? of course not, is the own people decision what to do or not to do, should we blame the guy that invented the knife?
 
Its people ignorance that turns something good into something bad, if people in this forum could really understand CM philosophy (not necessarily like it but understand it) then you could at least tell people like those that they are way far from doing it right like they think they are
 
It does not matter if CM exists or not, if people dont have TV they are still persons who are going to spank their dogs, rub their noses in their own poop etc. Getting rid of CM would not change anything about them
 
Go to yahoo answers, to the dog part, those people dont watch CM at all and give the worse advice i've ever seen, just proving that CM has anything to do with ignorant people

ORIGINAL: JM

Cowering pitbulls, sheperds going mad, fear biters.. are just not something you take out into public or into 'the dog world'.

They are the ones being taken around the corner into the "sleeping" chamber.  You won't find them in Petco and Petsmart adoption activities.

 
A good start to qualifying Mudpuppy's statements.  Dogs that are in the shelter world and placed in unfriendly, unnatural environments where their behavior can be expected to be peculiar.

All I can say is that people have been jerking and hitting their dogs for years, only NOW it's CM's fault. My first experience with dog training was Woodhouse-style 4-H dog training classes I took as a 12 year old kid more than 20 years ago - when CM was still a nobody in Mexico. From that experience to to the obedience classes I took with Lucy just last summer very little has changed in my area of the country. CM's style of training is much more humane that what is still being taught to most 4-H kids for the country fair dog show.

If we want to end abuse in the name of dog training, we need to start with the worst offenders, and from the little of what I've seen, CM doesn't even come close. His celebrity just makes him an easier target. Why bash methods by trainers who are dead or are only known to dog professionals when we can bash a guy that everyone who has watched Oprah knows.

That being said - I wouldn't do a lot of the things CM does. But I also wouldn't do many of the things Donaldson does. I don't think CM's techniques are "one-size-fits-all" any more than clicker-training is. I'm learning as I go along, and I think Lucy has taught me as much as any of the dozens of dog-training books and shows that I've read or watched.