Independent Thinking - CM revisited

While this thread is a good idea, I would ask EVERYONE to remember the forum rules.  No nastiness, no personal attacks, no crud digs......you get the idea.
 
We can debate an issue and still be NICE.

I would say that CM, at least in the time allotted in the show, doesn't present a clear definition or understanding of +R.
 
The most prime example is the episode where the dog is reactive when being given a bath. Knowing what I know now, the proper way is to slowly introduce the dog to the scene, giving treats for good behavior at each opportunity. And to realize that you may not give them a bath that day. And it's probably doubtful that anyone has put the dog through a structured +R training, at all. Slowly introduce the running water and let him relax, and give a treat. Essentially, closing the distance on the stimulus, just as if the water were other dogs he might react to.
 
In the episode, he gives a treat to lead the dog into the bathtub, calling that positive reinforcement, without really explaining the process. Then he turns on the water and the dog freaks and he scruffs him and a small struggle ensues. The dog was reacting normally, though it wasn't convenient for CM. On the plus side, the DW show constantly suggests finding a trainer in your area.
 
IMO, a trainer with a marker of some sort is truly whispering to the dog by being able to precisely mark the desired behavior and making that rewarding, giving the dog a "direction" to go forward to (sorry for the dangling participle).
 
On the plus side,the show raises the public's awareness of the need for training. It shows that 99 percent of the problem is human error. And, in recent episodes, the clients are shown as understanding that while they have been given a few pointers, the actual training and rehab process will take a while.
 
I also understand something else, now. While wolf pack models are accurate and feral dogs exhibit all those behaviors, wolf pack dynamics are not always applicable to human-dog relationships. For example, owning the space works at the time, but not always. In a wolf, it is the same and the alpha must continually assert dominance or, most of the time, pack members continually offer submission. In the human-dog scenario, it is more effective and managable to have the dog always follow the human because it should be more rewarding than the dog assuming control. That is, if you act like a dog, your dog will treat you like one. Which means you could expect challenges in the future, just like in the wild. Better to act like a human.
 
Another thing I've always disagreed on with the show, regardless of training tactics, is that not every dog should be saved. There are some that might not ever respond to standard training or +R. All they learned was a distrust of humans. With limited resources, perhaps the lost causes should be pts, leaving time and energy for the sweet-tempered dogs that require very easy training but get pts because they ran out of time.

I don't like cultural or sexist statements.  They cause recoil.
 
We have come to far in this country to have to listen to that kind of talk, and think that some people may believe it.  Not good.
 
On the other hand, a friend of mine has a disability and when she watches CM, it gives her confidence in how to approach dogs.  I think she is a little afraid of my rambunctious Siberians.  Although they are much calmer at 1 year, they still need to slow down more around her. (I am working on it)

I disagree with simply using the equipment that the owner has on the dog, which may be quite inappropriate. 
And, I really want to see a sequel on the Aussie and the tennis raquet episode, and some others.  []  Not just an end of the day sequel, but how easy or hard it was for the owners to maintain the effect, so to speak. 
I judge a lot by how dogs react and look - I want to see a developing relationship, not a shut down dog.  Obedient and happy is much different than obedient and resigned.

Well I for one do not agree with all of his methods.  I discourage them quite a bit.  Most people have NO clue as to the why of his philosophy.  But they'll go ahead and perform the patterns that they've learned on TV.  Bully for them, bad for the dog-in most cases.

People fail to realize that 9 times out of 10 it is not "dominance" that we are dealing with in our dogs.  It is failure to communicate effectively.  Most dogs want to please and are incredibly biddable, even most hounds.[]  I'd much rather see a Victoria Stillwell who teaches the owners and never lays a hand on the dog than see the trainer scruff the dog.  (If anyone saw the Dalmation episode this past week-that was a good one!)

As owners we need to manage the environment and allow our dogs to explore the options that we give them, and be consistent in what we choose to allow or not to allow.  It's no good for the dog to send mixed messages or no messages at all.   Manage the environment and they'll make the right choices consistently, those choices will become habit.  And good habits, just like bad habits are very hard to break.

I enjoy watching his shows for what he teaches about common sense, basic dog psychology, and stressing the importance of our body language, our timing with corrections/markers/rewards, and how easy it is to inadvertently encourage the bad behavior.

His actual methods are where I'm more skeptical and have seen just as good if not better results from my trainer, who uses a marker word and positive reinforcement.  She does corrections, but they are more verbal like "ah ah ah!" or subtle body language like stepping into a dog that's going to lunge excitedly rather than constant leash corrections and pushing dogs to the ground.  The reason why his methods work on his show is because he has such a high level of understanding of dog psychology his timing is perfect.  The average joe either corrects when no correction is necessary, corrects too late, or doesn't correct at all.  I know there are disclaimers, but it worries me that people will try what he does after only watching the show.  There's someone in my obedience class who has developed such a habit of using leash corrections, it's honestly her only form of communication with her dog and she corrects when she really means to be praising or giving a treat.  It's really weird to watch, but I guess if Cesar is your only experience with that type of training, it's not so far fetched.

I think that if people appropriately trained their dogs correctly as impressionable puppies, there'd really be no need for someone Cesar Millans because having established leadership and a positive relationship, all we'd ever need to continue progressing would be positive reinforcement.

Once you have your own dog who you live with 24/7, please know that there are so many other options than Cesar Millan. He's as heavily marketed as many other trainers but after having had a CM class and following those methods to a T, I realize how much more of a relationship I have with my dogs when I am doing clicker training.
 
And I don't mean this to be about clicker training, but I've come from one end of the spectrum to the other and here's my little testimonial--all of the "issues" I had before with my dogs--the reasons for CM training in the first place--are disappearing.

Everywhere I go these days I see leash pops.  Well, really, they are not pops but neck yanks.....it's sickening. 

The pops and rolls have caught on fabulously...but the 'calm' and 'do not attempt this at home' has been left along the byway.

Nothing good has come out of this. It is all about intimidation.

I saw the show about the Dal named Pongo....killer.  Now that is good news for dogs everywhere.  May it catch steam and reverberate around the world.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

...after having had a CM class and following those methods to a T,

 
Nfowler, there are classes that one can take?  Can you reference yours?  I have hired several trainers specifically for the dog's needs.  E.g.  Marvin would shut down at the slightest form of anything not positive.  I needed a trainer who was very rigid in the positive reinforcement technique.  For other dogs it is a blending of various methods.  Of course, if I don't agree with the technique I ask for an alternative and the trainer is more than happy to accomodate.

I saw the show about the Dal named Pongo....killer. Now that is good news for dogs everywhere. May it catch steam and reverberate around the world.

 
Same feelings on this end.  I loved that episode.  In fact I'll start another thread.

what I don't understand is if you offer any sort of criticism of CM with real-life examples of how the methods didn't work well or completely backfired, they jump all over you and shout loudly "he says DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME" on his show. And yet we have an entire board here where the same people who shout this phrase are talking about how to "Try this at home" on their own dogs and urging others to "try this at home" on other dogs.

Well first of all...no one is allowed to offer any constructive critisism...ever.  That's what kills me.

And once you have been deemed "a hater"...no redemption is possible. Any conversation from there on in concerning CM is seen as "anti"...even though it is  really not what you are about.

I was even told on this board, in the CM section (which I do NOT post to anymore) that I didn't experience a real CM experience in my class. I can't see how that is a true statement, given to me over the internet, no less.
 
It's so much like CM (that class) that when I heard his book was out--and mandatory reading in our class--I knew what kind of class it was for sure. But, it's not PC to have a bad feeling toward CM on this board, so I'll be quiet for now. We are expected to either admire him or be quiet. And yet I do feel like I might have something offer, having trained my dog the CM way and now going to the opposite end of the spectrum and seeing what fantastic results I'm getting . . 
 
 
DPU--I'll get back to your post after lunch!

ORIGINAL: JM

Well first of all...no one is allowed to offer any constructive critisism...ever.  That's what kills me.

And once you have been deemed "a hater"...no redemption is possible. Any conversation from there on in concerning CM is seen as "anti"...even though it is  really not what you are about.

 
Sorry JM, not my experience.  I like the social and psychology aspect but when it comes to the specific technique, I pick and choose depending on me knowing the dog.  Many of times I have offered modifying conventions with no backlash.  Its all in the delivery.