Independent Thinking - CM revisited

In context with what jenhuedepohl said...ok? " The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow." 
 
If you are a good leader, then you are going to have excellent follow through(not a disclaimer such as CM has- which he truly does need!)  and the ability to teach the reciever of your teaching/information so that they will be able to successfully use it.
 
People who have a "need" to feel empowered.  As in they feel inadequate at dealing with a dog.  They maybe afraid, inexperienced, had a bad experience which induces fear...these people are looking to latch onto the dominating status, so that it will quench that fear in them.
 
The tendency looks like misuse of "empowering" these people in a false sense of security, by alpha rolling and just in general dominating the dog.  It is inappropriate and not a real empowerment, and potentially with the wrong dog - dangerous.  I do believe that even my own dog would at one point give that guy a real bite for that sort of invasion on him. 
 
My male is incredibly gentle and sweet.  But he doesn't like to be pulled by his collar or poked or rolled by a 'friend' of ours.  I am aware (and understand dogs usually pretty well) and it won't happen again. 
 
Empowerment is not something that you buy in a book or watch on a tv.  I never really thought about this, but my empowerment, has everything to do with trust from my dog.  He knows that I won't do things to hurt him.  I can do things like get him to sit on that scale at the vet even though all he wants really is to get out of there -

The CM Illusion Collar is pricey and it does have some mechanical problem especially with the snaps. All other no pull collars did not work on Marvin. This is the only collar that does work and he, I, and other handlers are happy with it.

Interesting.  I'd really like to try it sometime.  Like I said, our shelter people love Gentle Leaders, and while I have no issues with these, they are just so different than the flat or choke collar JQP is used to.  I wonder if the I-collars make more sense, especially since we can't assume the adoptive family will use a Gentle Leader or something that fastens from the front or closer to the face.  At least with an I-collar, we could get the dogs used to a more typical collar around the neck and if the new owners do chose an Easy Walk, Gentle Leader, or whatever, great!  I wonder if the I-collar could really help in cases where people would be quick to resort to a prong collar ("he pulls and I don't have any control!").

ORIGINAL: Liesje

...At least with an I-collar, we could get the dogs used to a more typical collar around the neck and if the new owners do chose an Easy Walk, Gentle Leader, or whatever, great!  I wonder if the I-collar could really help in cases where people would be quick to resort to a prong collar ("he pulls and I don't have any control!").

 
I don't consider the Illusion Collar a training collar.  Marvin knows when he has it on and when it is on he knows his boundaries.  When I put another collar or harness on him, he reverts back to his old pulling, and pulling hard.

The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow.


Right, and CM's disclaimer does not follow that logic.  Therefore, he is not a good leader. 

I guess I didn't make my point clear. I was trying to say that telling everyone "that idea is stupid" isn't the best way to win them over to your way of thinking. I hate those political ads that just talk about what an idiot candidate "X" is. Give me an ad about why candidate "Y" is better. Don't tell me what a moron CM is. Tell me why Donaldson's way is better.

We seem to have CM supporters stereotyped as uneducated, sadistic brutes who lives to see their dog's hanging from a choke collar or rolled evey time they blink. If you don't hate CM, you are at the very least sadly uninformed and at worst willfully ignorant. There doesn't seem to be room for those that agree with CM philosiphies AND with R+ methods. I enjoy CM's show, yet I haven't rolled my dog once. I use a clicker, and also use the "confrontational" body block. I just do what works for me and my dog. If someone wants to tell me a better way to do something I'll give it a try. If someone wants to tell me that what I'm doing is "out-of-date" and "barbaric," well then, I guess I'll just "shut-down" and tune them out []

I don't consider the Illusion Collar a training collar.

If it's not good for training, than what purpose would it serve as opposed to just a normal collar, if the dog is already trained not to pull?

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl
I guess I didn't make my point clear. I was trying to say that telling everyone "that idea is stupid" isn't the best way to win them over to your way of thinking. I hate those political ads that just talk about what an idiot candidate "X" is. Give me an ad about why candidate "Y" is better. Don't tell me what a moron CM is. Tell me why Donaldson's way is better.

We seem to have CM supporters stereotyped as uneducated, sadistic brutes who lives to see their dog's hanging from a choke collar or rolled evey time they blink. If you don't hate CM, you are at the very least sadly uninformed and at worst willfully ignorant. There doesn't seem to be room for those that agree with CM philosiphies AND with R+ methods. I enjoy CM's show, yet I haven't rolled my dog once. I use a clicker, and also use the "confrontational" body block. I just do what works for me and my dog. If someone wants to tell me a better way to do something I'll give it a try. If someone wants to tell me that what I'm doing is "out-of-date" and "barbaric," well then, I guess I'll just "shut-down" and tune them out []

[sm=floating.gif]

Independent thinking - hoorah! There it is!

I support you, and thank you for your words!

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow.


Right, and CM's disclaimer does not follow that logic.  Therefore, he is not a good leader. 

I guess I didn't make my point clear. I was trying to say that telling everyone "that idea is stupid" isn't the best way to win them over to your way of thinking. I hate those political ads that just talk about what an idiot candidate "X" is. Give me an ad about why candidate "Y" is better. Don't tell me what a moron CM is. Tell me why Donaldson's way is better.

We seem to have CM supporters stereotyped as uneducated, sadistic brutes who lives to see their dog's hanging from a choke collar or rolled evey time they blink. If you don't hate CM, you are at the very least sadly uninformed and at worst willfully ignorant. There doesn't seem to be room for those that agree with CM philosiphies AND with R+ methods. I enjoy CM's show, yet I haven't rolled my dog once. I use a clicker, and also use the "confrontational" body block. I just do what works for me and my dog. If someone wants to tell me a better way to do something I'll give it a try. If someone wants to tell me that what I'm doing is "out-of-date" and "barbaric," well then, I guess I'll just "shut-down" and tune them out []

Actually, if you look closely there are quite a few people who do not "hate" CM.  However, part of free thought is being able to discuss the pros and cons of an issue.  We have an *enitre* forum where only pros are allowed to be discussed.  Therefore, it makes perfect sense that there be a spot for the cons.  Balence is important, as I'm sure any CM fan realizes.

There doesn't seem to be room for those that agree with CM philosiphies AND with R+ methods. I enjoy CM's show, yet I haven't rolled my dog once. I use a clicker, and also use the "confrontational" body block. I just do what works for me and my dog. If someone wants to tell me a better way to do something I'll give it a try. If someone wants to tell me that what I'm doing is "out-of-date" and "barbaric," well then, I guess I'll just "shut-down" and tune them out

 
You know, I agree with you!  I only would hope that JQP would know better and I do see that in a known situation to me, that CM is instrumental to "teaching" the wrong idea to my friends.    What they got out of it is about dominating the dog.   (and MY dog!)
 
It seems like the simplist thing a person who is going to go wrong on is the things we most likely agree on here.  Leash popping alpha rolling get that dog under control paranoia!  I actually met someone that told me the way to get my puppy to stop jumping up was to knee him good in the chest., then he would stop that jumping.  Well, she was your steriotypical, sadist brute - with no front teeth to go with that cliche.  It is the way a lot of JQP's naturally and ignorantly go about initially teaching a puppy?  Well, if I did that I surely would have had the domination challenge that CM constantly shows on his program with that very intelligent and capable of learning puppy.  I would never knee any dog in the chest, and yet that woman did it to my puppy---
 
It is monkey see monkey do in the world.  And if you show abnormal psychology of dogs on a program and tell people to not do - we know that they still will.  And a lot of what he says to do is just plain questionable and with his own assertion to not do it yourself... to save his company from legalities.
 
I do believe that the show is purely entertainment.  But it is also an instrument even though people are not supposed to be learning how to do that at home.  Like everything we love sensationalism, rather than the actual news report.

However, part of free thought is being able to discuss the pros and cons of an issue.  We have an *enitre* forum where only pros are allowed to be discussed.  Therefore, it makes perfect sense that there be a spot for the cons.  Balence is important, as I'm sure any CM fan realizes.

I'm with your there, Christina. I have really enjoyed this thread, and many others like it. But, as most of these do, it eventually tends to degenerate into random generalizations and mischaracterizations on both sides. We all have our own ideas about dog training and behavior and that's why I really enjoy this forum. I get tired of the "all these people are like this" and "you people only know how to do that" stuff. We can ALL agree that all dogs and all situations are unique and nobody knows all there is to know about dogs, or anything else for that matter. As with all other things in life, what we don't know far exceeds what we do.

There doesn't seem to be room for those that agree with CM philosiphies AND with R+ methods.

I think that is because the two methods are sometimes in complete opposition to one another.  A positive trainer would not likely drag a frightened dog out from under a chair.  Instead, that trainer might sit next to the dog, offer food, wait, allow the dog to come to her, sniff, etc.  The two methods, in that situation, are diametrically opposed, so how is there room for both?  CM wouldn't desensitize, and +R Rita wouldn't flood.
While there may be areas where CM fans and +R fans could agree, it is pretty hard to reconcile the fact that we can only agree with CM on the other section, and never offer alternatives to CM methods, such as "tell me why Donaldson is better".  I'd be happy to do that, but it isn't allowed there.  Care to combine the areas again and have free discussion everywhere? 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

...it is pretty hard to reconcile the fact that we can only agree with CM on the other section, and never offer alternatives to CM methods, such as "tell me why Donaldson is better". 

 
I created a couple of threads "over there" and I felt I was able to disagree with CM.  Questioning his method so I can understand his choices.  In the CM and Fear thread I questioned things like does CM consider Breed, Age, etc when approaching and resolving a dog situation. 
 
Remember you are talking to members who represent his views and you are not talking to CM.  I don't think anyone can talk for CM except for CM.

I think that is because the two methods are sometimes in complete opposition to one another.  A positive trainer would not likely drag a frightened dog out from under a chair.  Instead, that trainer might sit next to the dog, offer food, wait, allow the dog to come to her, sniff, etc.  The two methods, in that situation, are diametrically opposed, so how is there room for both?  CM wouldn't desensitize, and +R Rita wouldn't flood.

This is where some of the misunderstanding starts - CM has dealt with fearful dog BOTH ways. He sat outside Patti Labelle's dog's kennel until the dog calmed and came up to him - he did the same with a fearful coonhound. He just goes to the next step as soon as the dog shows sign of relaxing, and doesn't always wait until the dog is perfectly comfortable before proceeding. Do I agree with the method? Not sure. Never dealt with a fearful dog. Do I condemn it? Again, not enough experience to judge. My brother & sister-in-law has been trying to work with their unsocialized golden pup. Penny got her gradually desensitized enough so she would leave her kennel and even eat when people were around, but could not get her any further espeically outside. My no-nonsense brother that just tells cheerfully her to get over it when she gets scared and she respond much better outdoors for him. BOTH gradual and flooding methods worked for this dog.

My experience in that other area is that I felt about as welcome as ants at a picnic.  I avoided that area for a long time, but when it became part of my moderating duties I had no choice but to wade in.  And that water was FULL of sharks despite the fact that I was open minded and willing to learn. ONE of the regulars in that area was very helpful, the others, were at times, downright hostile for the most part.
 
So, my willingness to learn withered on the vine and my open mind slammed shut like a steel trap.
 
Now, my personal take on this thread is that it's a shame that it's become and us against them kind of thing and no one seems to be open to examining options other than what "works for them".
 
I'm half tempted to shut this thread down since it's just going in circles, but I'll leave it be for now.  It would, however, be nice if we could have some actual discussions.

Gosh, I wish I could be as lucky as you, jenhuedepohl, when I'm out walking. Everyone around me seems to watch CM and everyone wants to try out CM things on my dogs (hello!) because they don't have dogs and want to see if it works. Huh uh. I'm in charge of my dogs, not TV viewers.

Now, my personal take on this thread is that it's a shame that it's become and us against them kind of thing and no one seems to be open to examining options other than what "works for them".

I agree, and along these lines I wonder how much of it really "works for them".  I know CM's methods work for him, but do they work for JQP?  What I mean is, I know a few people who would lick the ground CM walks on, but some of these people either don't even have dogs or have never used CM-esque methods under proper supervision.   When I try to have a discussion with them about what works and what doesn't, they point me to episodes in his show, not actual examples of techniques they have used that have specifically worked on their dogs.  For example, I asked about a dog that was fearful of my husband and for some tips on approaching her and helping her.  A CM person said "Well, just go in, put a lead on her, and take her out!  I've seen this work." so I gave that a try and the dog totally shut down, hid behind my legs and growled and snarled at my husband, then tried to get over the fence!  I then went back and said that didn't work, it made her worse and she was like "Shoot! Well, it worked on X CM episode."  I thought, you've got to be kidding me, she asked me to try this b/c of a CM episode and she never actually experienced this!  These are people in real life and on another forum, so I'm not pointing fingers here, but this happens to me enough to be getting really old and annoying by now.

Personally, I do not advocate for or against any technique (besides obvious torture) until I've seen it work or not work.  In my current class, the instructor has us using positive reinforcement and marker words, but we also use certain techniques for correcting and redirecting.  It's basically the same basic common sense dog psychology everyone ogles at CM about applied to positive reinforcement methods.  There are some things she does that I'd never do, and there's somethings I prefer to do that she doesn't always teach.

Dogs are like people, they are all different and need various methods or conglomerates of methods to be the most effective.  It doesn't make sense to say one method is better for ALL dogs.  That's like saying the BEST method to learn a language is memorize vocab.  OK, maybe for some people, but for others they can only learn by being immersed in the language, or by practicing it conversationally, etc.  As I've already stated, my main issues with CM are that people inappropriately try to immitate him (not his fault) and he is often wrong or inconsistent (his fault).  But at the same time, I do enjoy his show and he has helped me in a lot of areas like paying closer attention to timing, posture, and the little ways I can enforce NILF better (like asking the dog to sit so I can leave the building first).

I'd say personally I practice about 25% of what CM does but more like 75% what he teaches about basic dog psychology and dog ownership.  The other 75% of the time I'm using clickers and positive reinforcement, or I'm just so frustrated I'm clueless! []