Independent Thinking - CM revisited

I'm not sure too many people can talk beyond what works for them, though. I mean, isn't this the same thing that happens on gardening and parenting boards? Isn't this the same thing that happens at work, with casual coworkers? (Close coworkers know when I need to vent and explore options and when I really need help.)
 
That's the thing about these forums--people tend to talk to what they know and what they've done.

I'm not sure too many people can talk beyond what works for them, though. I mean, isn't this the same thing that happens on gardening and parenting boards? Isn't this the same thing that happens at work, with casual coworkers? (Close coworkers know when I need to vent and explore options and when I really need help.)

True, but I said advocate, not just talk/discuss.  At this point I do not advocate for or against CM because I haven't seen enough of it in action.  I'll discuss it and have opinions about it regardless whether I've tried it or seen it, but I won't defend it or completely write it off until I've had experience with it.  So far, the majority of my experience has been with clicker training and positive reinforcement.  Since I've done these with a professional instructor and see them working I will advocate for them.

Talk/discuss/advocate--in these forums, it's essentially the same thing (to me--but you may not see it that way). You ask somebody the best way to cook a chicken breast and you'll generally hear what works for them. I think it happens this way here, too.
 
I've done both types of training and I know which one I prefer--but I'm not everybody--just one person who has two dogs (and had a couple before these two) who's done more than one type of training. That said, I can only speak from experience, as do many of the trainers I read/talk to/watch, etc. People do what works. What would be interesting to know is it ONLY what works or is based off methodology?

I'm half tempted to shut this thread down since it's just going in circles, but I'll leave it be for now. It would, however, be nice if we could have some actual discussions.

 
Please leave it...I'm learning and reading and applying and re-learning and re-reading...While some posts have disclaimers for the lurkers, I'm telling you this discourse should be left out in all its glory.  I share opinions on both sides, and actively discuss training theories w/ my sis inlaw like its Oprah's book club..
 
Please continue..... 

I will leave it for now, but I am watching this thread and I'd really rather that folks would self moderate and not get nasty or talk in circles.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Gosh, I wish I could be as lucky as you, jenhuedepohl, when I'm out walking. Everyone around me seems to watch CM and everyone wants to try out CM things on my dogs (hello!) because they don't have dogs and want to see if it works. Huh uh. I'm in charge of my dogs, not TV viewers.

 
Hi Nfowler,
 
Idaho has a population of about 1,500,000.  Where I live, the metro surrounding area is about 8,000,000.  Why can't I come across the people you describe?  I  would so love to have a in-person conversation to gain insight.
 
Please Glenmar, don't follow through with your threat.  This is the first time I have seen members put out rigid views and then do a follow up explaining why.  The follow ups help in gaining an understanding.  Doglife is an excellent example and I for one, appreciate that.

Not a threat.....more me thinking out loud,but I would hope that members would heed the suggestion that they self moderate a bit.

, and CM's disclaimer does not follow that logic

 
Here's a good way to differentiate between clicker training and CM. With CM, there are repeated and well-intentioned cautions against trying what he does at home. With Clicker Training, you can try an of it at home. In fact, we would nearly beg you to try it at home. With CM's methods, you must have his strength, timing, and speed. With Clicker Training, a kid can do it.

From DPU:
Idaho has a population of about 1,500,000.  Where I live, the metro surrounding area is about 8,000,000.  Why can't I come across the people you describe?  I  would so love to have a in-person conversation to gain insight.

 
I live in a starter home community and a senior community (separated by a street). I end up talking a lot with the seniors, who watch the shows. So, there's a light note for you. And they want to try all sorts of things with my dogs and they're also hard of hearing! (gulp) It's a challenge for sure, sometimes.
 
I never try and talk to them about the whys. I figure they have little else to do but watch TV and wait for fun beings like me and the dogs to come through. I end up planting flowers for them, taking their garbage to the street, talking weather, and hearing them discuss CM.
 
So long as their "hissing" isn't too loud, what am I going to do? []

ORIGINAL: nfowler

I never try and talk to them about the whys.

 
Is it safe to say that you allow them to influence you and you choose not to influence them.  Or is it that you like the confirmation of your CM view.

Talk/discuss/advocate--in these forums, it's essentially the same thing (to me--but you may not see it that way). You ask somebody the best way to cook a chicken breast and you'll generally hear what works for them. I think it happens this way here, too.

I've done both types of training and I know which one I prefer--but I'm not everybody--just one person who has two dogs (and had a couple before these two) who's done more than one type of training. That said, I can only speak from experience, as do many of the trainers I read/talk to/watch, etc. People do what works. What would be interesting to know is it ONLY what works or is based off methodology?

Right, but we're both talking about what actually works for us.  What I'm saying is people will try to tell me I have to try this or that with our dogs simply because they saw it on TV and think it works, end of story.  These people either already have a well trained dog and have never actually used CM tactics, have never dealt with behavioral issues, or in some cases they don't even have a dog!  I've never ever had someone who didn't have a dog approach me and say I should do clicker training or I should try more positive reinforcement.  I have had people tell me I should try an alpha roll, people who've never done one, never seen it done except on CM, and don't even know the true nature of an alpha roll.  It's certainly not ALL CM fans, but these days the only people giving me such outrageous advice are JQP and novice dog owners that think they know how to train dogs because they watched a half season of CM in their Tivo.

Is it safe to say that you allow them to influence you and you choose not to influence them.  Or is it that you like the confirmation of your CM view.

You crack me up! I'm a little more shallow here than you, my friend. It's safe to say they are hard of hearing. And, I should do a self-edit here: I have younger people who watch the "dog whisperer guy on TV" and I have the elderly who watch "that dog man on the T. V." and I can't get a word in edgewise that they'll totally comprehend. Most of them haven't ever had dogs--though one man, in particular, who has always disliked dogs, is now seeing how much his wife would benefit from having a little dog (nothing like my terriers).

I generally don't get into "debates" with anyone except here and with a couple of people who have dogs that I run into on more than an incidental basis.  

Edit for a comment to Liesje since I'm already here. I hear you. I get all kinds of tips. I think people use to give "tips" to parents (and probably still do) but it's not so "PC" to do that now and so now dog owners get the tips. I actually had one woman stop me and read me a riot act for having my male on a Halti and my female's leash wound so tightly in my hand that she (female) couldn't move her body away from me. Why? Because I just poured 4k into her for a new hip and this was our first joint walk as a trio and I was a nervous wreck about something going wrong. I didn't want my male to pull (and he didn't) and I didn't want my female to move more than 6" away from me (just kidding, but I'm sure you get my sense of fear and worry here) and I wanted to try a 5-minute walk to help ME out. It was a disaster--I spent 15 minutes trying to explain to this lady what my goal was and nicely arguing with her as to why I wasn't going to do the Koehler thing with my dogs. (Not to mention having to get in her face when she came too close and wanted to "show" me how to do leash corrections and how to walk with a loose leash.)

I walked them separately for a few more weeks after that, uh, adventure.

Hi Nfowler,
 
I don#%92t understand the use of the word “shallow”.  I am not knee deep involved in one training method vs another.  I like to know what is out there and gain an understanding of the philosophy behind the method.  And because I have new dogs coming to my home that stay for awhile and I get to know them, I pick and choose or combine different techniques to suite their personalities.  I look at training a dog as a temporary activity and most dogs are resilient to come back from a correction method.  Again depends on the dog and my ability to correctly read the dog.  Now Petro, one my Great Danes that I have had for 2 years, has never been instructed in obedience except for the come command.  He fits well into my house and has a unique niche there.  So some dogs do need training and behavior modification while others don#%92t need it all. 
 
Glad I crack you up.  I enjoy reading your post but I do know I pose a dilemma for some members.
 

I do think you are in a rather unique situation DPU.
 

Why can't I come across the people you describe? I would so love to have a in-person conversation to gain insight.

 
I don't know. I can't seem to go anywhere without having someone lovingly describe some episode of CM's show and then attempt to do Something to one of my dogs or strongly recommend I do it-- even had a contractor come to my home and spontaneously waste half an hour talking about CM and calmly describe the horrible (I thought) things he does to his boxer to "claim the leadership role". And you can't really have a conversation, cause naturally anyone who appears on TV MUST know everything.

you can't really have a conversation, cause naturally anyone who appears on TV MUST know everything

This is what has so many good trainers tearing their hair out.  [sm=help.gif]