Independent Thinking - CM revisited

ORIGINAL: DPU

This thread may reach 4,000 hits and yes the content did not turn out the way the OP envisioned.  If I was extremely passionate about Clicker Training, I would take advantage of the one time high volume traffic here by creating other threads highlighting the benefits and fun of Clicker Training.  Heavy emotions do cloud good judgment.

Oddly, I don't see any new threads over on the CM section touting those methods.  You are all too busy over here making sure that you defend your icon.  I think that anyone who is interested in positive training for their dog will certainly find it on the other clicker threads, but since you brought it up, I'll just post the links again for anyone who likes the idea of hands off, dog-friendly, positive training that can give you the best companion you have ever had.  Train with no pain:
www.clickertraining.com
www.clickertrainusa.com (free videos)
www.clickerlessons.com
www.clickersolutions.com
http://legacycanine.com/workshops/bailey/index.html (Bob Bailey workshops)
http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/ (Teaching Dogs magazine/Kay Laurence)
http://www.takeabowwow.com/about.html
http://www.doggonecrazy.ca/ (clicker puppy, doggone crazy game for kids & parents)
http://www.sitstay.com/store/books/clicker1.shtml
http://www.clickertrain.com/ (Corally Burmaster/The Clicker Journal)

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Oddly, I don't see any new threads over on the CM section touting those methods.  You are all too busy over here making sure that you defend your icon.

Funny, I only saw Espencer contribute to this thread, the rest are independent thinkers. 

So yes, both CM section and the Clicker section are stale.  That's why I am here .  Got to start somewhere.  [] 

I am on my second round of Clicker class, do you want me to start a bunch of threads?  I don't think you can or want to address both the positive and negative sides of Clicker Training (objectively) from a JQP perspective.

Care to gearup?  Just kidding.

Now this is meant to be funny, at least for me.  Ever since the Ottawa Humane Society thread, I started purposely adding an extra "s" to your loginId.  I always wondered if that bugged you and now I know.  No need to do it anymore, Spiritdogs.  []

This thread has been off topic for a while.  Why are we talking about personalities on the forum when it is supposed to be about CM and disputing his qualities?

"...On the other hand, I work with a guy who *loves* CM and is a HUGE fan of the alpha roll.  Everytime he would bring up Cesar, he would talk about how he alpha rolled his dogs for this or that.  He even declared his 10 wk old puppy "aggressive" because she mouthed his hand when he alpha rolled her. "
 
 
Have you ever had a friend or a neighbor come over to your house and do this sort of thing with your dog?  It is amazing how empowered they feel and how upsetting it is to watch.
 
I am simply amazed at how some people that literally know nothing about caring and good training of dogs, will just ignorantly and blindly carry out this sort of rubbish.
 
Luckily I have good natured dogs, but what if they weren't?

I was at a graduation party for a friend's son last night. They have an absolutely charming and utterly adorable one year old English bulldog, so of course he subject of dogs came up. When Lara asked me if I'd seen the Dog Whisperer on TV, I replied that I'd seen him but made no comment about my opinions of his show. I wanted to hear what a "non-dog" person who had read no training books and had never even taken a single obedience class would take from Cesar's show.

Lara thought that Cesar's assertion that it's the humans, not the dog that need to change was a "revelation." She talked about how she learned about massage from CM and found that rubbing Lexi's shoulders makes her "catatonic" so she'll massage her when they need to calm her down enough to trim nails or clean her face. Lara thought that "being calm and pretending Lexi isn't even there" (her words) made her much easier on leash.

Not a single comment about alpha rolls, or scruffing. And they're are not people with an aversion to being physical. I know they spanked their kids when they were younger and thought "rubbing their nose in it" was the way to house train pups. They actually became less physical and thought more about how to change the dogs behavior by changing their own behavior by watching CM. Are they completely "rehabilitated" totally positive reinforcement now? Oh, heck no. But they're a few steps closer to being kinder and more understanding with Lexi.

While CM may be "outdated" to most of us here, he's still decades ahead of J.Q. Public who hasn't read a dog book or even heard of a clicker. You can't change people overnight, but I can't complain about progress, even if it's just a little step.

True that, the bolded sentence.  However for your great example of how CM has positively influenced a JQP dog owner, I have one that went the wrong way.  There's a guy in my obedience class using a thin metal choke collar on his puppy.  He snaps her collar so hard she's often jerked right off her feet! (cus he's pulling it to the side, just like Cesar says!) Now, she is very hyper and can get a bit unruly, but his timing is WAY off.  He's also gotten so used to popping her collar so often that he does it for any bit of communication, even when he intends to say "good girl" or reward.  He over-corrects, never rewards, his timing is off, the poor dog is young and already frustrated.  It's been weeks and the only "improvement" I see from her is she will sit with a fearful look in her eyes.  It's so disgusting because I know he loves this dog and means well, but he's taking these methods he sees on TV and doing them ALL wrong, scaring the bejesus out of his dog and destroying their relationship in the process.  The dog does not trust him at all and is always acting skittish or wary.

These examples illustrate how I have felt about CM from the first day I heard about him - I really, really appreciate the fact that he has become popular among JQP and thus is educating people about basic dog psychology and common sense dog ownership.  However, people continue to ignore the disclaimers and not only assume his methods are the best, but actually try them on their dogs.  Dogs are getting more frustrated at best, physically injured at worse because of this.  I'd prefer the show focus more on the psychology aspect and show more of Cesar and his pack rather than him imposing these methods on other people's dogs.  When JQP sees it being done to someone else's dog and it appears to work, they just go ahead and try it regardless of the warnings on the screen.

I got tired of having complete strangers make weird SSSTING noises at my dogs and taught them to give very determined, very sloppy face kisses to anyone doing that.

Liesje, just for clarity, did JQP dog owner say that he got this particular bad treatment from CM. 
 
In the early 90#%92s and even today, reward (praise) and correction (popping) was what was taught in obedience classes.  And yes, some people went way overboard with the popping and did not listen to the instructor.
 
Also, this past Saturday I was in the vet office and like in every clinic there is this owner and Pittie sitting by themselves.  I sat next to them and started up a conversation.  The Pittie was snappy, doing air snaps and he wanted my Marvin#%92s tail.  The owner would pop the dog and if the dog got really close he would place his hand over the mouth and nose.  He would then release and the dog would sit perfectly still.  He said this is how he calms the dog down.  Oh yeah, one time he did smack the dog on the forehead. 
 
Since we both were waiting on the vet, we had a very long conversation and I would question the guy and his wife asking things like why do you do that.  Who instructed you to do that?  Do you think that really works.  I also got the opportunity to demo Marvin and what he has learned in clicker obedience class.  Sit, lay, rollover, high five, shake, etc.  They were quite impressed and wanted their dog to be like Marvin.  Image that, someone says they want their dog to be like Marvin, the dog with the world#%92s shortest attention span.  I was even so bold as to ask them, lets see how Bugsy responds to treat training?  And Bugsy did great.  I gave them training facilities referrals and they were most interested in the one that trains police dog.
 
Anyway, I try and if this couple can find a middle ground method between their method and the method I demoed to them, I am happy.  But you know CM was never brought up and Marvin was wearing the Illusion Collar.

In the early 90#%92s and even today, reward (praise) and correction (popping) was what was taught in obedience classes.....

..........and Marvin was wearing the Illusion Collar.

Right, but it was being demoed in class under supervision of an instructor.  If people still chose to ignore instruction even with an instructor present, they have more issues than just training dogs, IMO.  The CM thing is different because friends say to me "well I saw it on CM so I thought it would really work!" and they are trying it on their own before they even get into an obedience class, regardless of what type of class it is.  By the time they get into class, they've developed terrible habits and their timing is all wrong.  They've got to start from scratch AND get rid of these habits.  Not to mention rebuilding the dog's trust...

How do you find the I-collar?  I wish I could try it but it's a little pricey just for experimenting with shelter dogs (our shelter people are gaga over Gentle Leaders).

Have you ever had a friend or a neighbor come over to your house and do this sort of thing with your dog?  It is amazing how empowered they feel and how upsetting it is to watch.

No. I have never had anyone try to discipline my dogs. Quite the opposite in fact - everyone encourages behavior I'm trying to stop. Like jumping, begging and whining. "Oh I don't mind - she's not bothering me" or "that's OK, she's just being a dog."

I got tired of having complete strangers make weird SSSTING noises at my dogs and taught them to give very determined, very sloppy face kisses to anyone doing that.

Why does everyone think "shhtt!" is some CM cult thing and automatically peg anyone who uses it as a cretin? I've been using a very similar sound for years. It's the sound my grandpa & uncles used when we worked cattle and hogs. I've also heard many horse people use it (I can still see Brigid hissing everytime Gordon would try to walk off while she was braiding him). It's almost exactly the same sound my German great-aunt makes when she's expressing displeasure (usually when we talk about my cousin and her illegitimate children). It's just a sound to get their attention and mark an undesirable behavior. CM has said many times to use a sound you are comfortable with. Will Stillwell's "Ah-ah!" or the NRM of other trainers become despised as well? We already know that any dog-owner who says "no!" is ignorant and clueless. I'll have to add Shhtt! to my list of "Signs of an witless dog owner." Somewhere between "Uses a Flexi Lead" and "Owns a Doodle"

I'm being pretty sarcastic, but the point I'm trying to get at is that the "politics" of dog training & care is taking a lot of the fun out having a dog. People aren't going to learn how to be better dog owners if we tell them they're mindless and ignorant. Nobody wants to be judged. The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow. That's not always what I'm getting from some areas in dog training. Some are spending more time telling people how barbaric they are than telling them how well alternative techniques work. And lets not even get started on how judgemental nutrition can get!

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I got tired of having complete strangers make weird SSSTING noises at my dogs and taught them to give very determined, very sloppy face kisses to anyone doing that.

Why does everyone think "shhtt!" is some CM cult thing and automatically peg anyone who uses it as a cretin? I've been using a very similar sound for years. It's the sound my grandpa & uncles used when we worked cattle and hogs.

[sm=biggrin.gif] Quite right!

Why does everyone think "shhtt!" is some CM cult thing and automatically peg anyone who uses it as a cretin? I've been using a very similar sound for years.

No kidding.  I've always used this sound on my cats (they think it means water, so it gets their attention) along with pointing.  For example, if Becks is on the table I say "ssst!" to get his attention and then point down...he relunctantly jumps off the table.  For dogs I naturally just say "heh" or "eh eh" b/c I've associated "sssst!" as the cats' "no" noise.

They're spending more time telling people how barbaric they are than telling them how well alternative techniques work. And lets not even get started on how judgemental nutrition can get!

Haha!  Some of the 'discussions' I've read/seen regarding pet food choices remind me of the "you're a horrible mother and a satanic person in general if you ever give your baby formula in a bottle even once!" type 'discussions'.  [&:]

Why does everyone think "shhtt!" is some CM cult thing and automatically peg anyone who uses it as a cretin? I've been using a very similar sound for years.

 
[]
I use that when I stub my toe or if someone leaves the gate open! 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

...If people still chose to ignore instruction even with an instructor present, they have more issues than just training dogs, IMO. 

In the scenario of "looking from the outside in" it may appear that instruction are not being followed but in fact the instructions are not understood and the technique is not perfected.  I might be the epitome for the phrase "treat dispensing butler" in my clicker lessons with Marvin.  In other words I may be the worst clicker trainer because I can't resist withholding a treat when a pair of hound eyes are on me. 

Many years ago in training my dog in agility using a choke collar, it took a lot of practice and as you say rebuilding of trust that occurred outside of the class to make the dog be a champ at agility. The instruction didn't work for me and I had to modify what I was told to do.

The CM Illusion Collar is pricey and it does have some mechanical problem especially with the snaps.  All other no pull collars did not work on Marvin.  This is the only collar that does work and he, I, and other handlers are happy with it. 

The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow.

 
Right, and CM's disclaimer does not follow that logic.  Therefore, he is not a good leader. 
 
The thing is, people who need to "feel"  empowered will be the ones to grab onto this.  Who are those people?, JQP.  Not people who have  been dealing with dogs all of their life and already have a clue how to humanely work with a dog. 
 
This domination effect is so improper esp. when you see how badly it can effect a dog.  I saw the look of my dog when a friend actually did that crap with him.  And they love that show.  It is falsely creating a comfort zone in them, that they can just roll that dog right down.  If my dog was a dog that did not trust people, he would have given him a well deserved bite in his self empowered face!  I cringed and was totally unexpecting what he did with my dog!  It was so uncalled for.  My dog looked at me and you can fill in what his expression looked like. -
 
 

ORIGINAL: dogslife

The best leaders are ones who set an example and allow others to follow.

Right, and CM's disclaimer does not follow that logic.  Therefore, he is not a good leader. 

The thing is, people who need to "feel"  empowered will be the ones to grab onto this.  Who are those people?, JQP. 

I do the same thing and I am good Leader and I have no problem conversing with the public on their choice of training methods.  When I talked with two Pittie owners at different vet offices on Friday night and Saturday morning, I qualified my "advice" and recommended professional obedience classes.  There is only so much you can say and do in a short period of time given, just like in the time constraints of a tv show.

And, I feel empowered when I give Marvin treats for offering the right behavior.  I don't understand your point.