Independent Thinking - CM revisited

His devotion alone can't always make up for his inconsistencies and outdated ideas driving his methods.

Well, that is probably the most accurate and succinct sentence on this entire thread to describe what's lacking about CM and his work.  It says a lot about his clear devotion to helping dogs, but highlights the inconsistency of trying to do so with limited understanding.  I think another way of phrasing this is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

I don't know if I'm part of the accursed Cabal or not

Ron, I don't think so - of course I suspect that was a very thinly veiled barb intended for me, so I must be at least 1/3 of it, although I certainly don't think that debating an issue, even hotly debating it, is the same as trying to "suppress opposing opinions".  The CM threads do enough of that.  So is that entire section, and everyone on it, a Cabal?? 

The claim is made, in many different ways, that corrections "shut down" a dog, lead to learned helplessness, and squash independent thinking. As opposed to mainly positive-based training.

I venture to point out, with many illustrations, that the training I do here, and which many others like me do, accomplishes quite the opposite - dogs that are confident where they weren't before, and steady, calm thinkers where they were impulsive and reactive previously.

I agree that is the case with your training.  However, I do not think that all of the ordinary pet owners out there are as able to read a dog as you are, and I also think that their timing is not always accurate, either with punishment or reward.  In the greater context of general pet ownership, I think it can be safely said that the average dog owner will frequently underreward and overpunish.  I see it time and time again, and the blank stare usually comes with the question, "So, how many times today did you catch your dog doing something right and reward it?"  Nada.  But, they can surely tell you how many times the dog tipped over the garbage, stole a sock, or chewed up a shoe.  So, the pup receives more punishment than training, and does develop a shut down attitude, or worse.  You cannot argue an absolute on either side of this question, but you can argue that, in the hands of JQP, positive reinforcement may do less harm when implemented incorrectly than correction does.  JMHO.

I don't know if I'm part of the accursed Cabal or not
Ron, I don't think so - of course I suspect that was a very thinly veiled barb intended for me, so I must be at least 1/3 of it, although I certainly don't think that debating an issue, even hotly debating it, is the same as trying to "suppress opposing opinions". The CM threads do enough of that. So is that entire section, and everyone on it, a Cabal

 
Well, I know I was an honorary "old broad" during the heyday of that bit, and I end up agreeing with you more than not agreeing, so I wondered perhaps if I was cabalistic by extension. Don't I get even basic Cabal?[] Oh, that was too funny, I must stop.[]

ORIGINAL: ron2

Well, I know I was an honorary "old broad" during the heyday of that bit, and I end up agreeing with you more than not agreeing, so I wondered perhaps if I was cabalistic by extension. Don't I get even basic Cabal?[] Oh, that was too funny, I must stop.[]

 
Well since its being pursued.  Actually, if I remember the society's name was the Sisterhood of Forum Oldies.  You guys created the addendum to include "Old Broads"  I also recall Ron2, you volunteered to be part of the group and you would wear earings and put on skirt so you fit in.  BTW, the thread was referenced in the last thread you created.  Anyway, I am glad to report that it looks like the charter has to been changed to use less bullying tactics on new members or to those that disagree with the group.  I think I had a lot to do with this improvement.
 
It would be nice if Spiritsdogs would fully read a post and comprehend it.  In my post I specifically said she is not part of the Cabal Three and either are you Ron2.  I know there will be a rush for members to be part of the Cabal Three but this group is mostly on the other side of forum with one member crossing over to training but in disguise.  Please do have fun with this.

Can I be one?  Please please please?

Chuffy, I almost had to increment the number to Four and include myself in the group.  But, thank goodness I have self control and you changed your very active avatar.   []

It was causing issues for those people with dial up so I removed it.  Shame, I thought he was cute!!  But it must have been driving everyone nuts!

Yeah, it WAS cute, but it wrecked havoc on my connection!  The ONE disadvantage to living in the boonies is the unavailability of certain essentials.[>:]
 
And gosh darn, my feelings are hurt.  No body ever invited ME to be part of the Cabel. []
 
On a somewhat more official note.....lets not let this thread disinegrate into name calling and unpleasantness.  There are some posts that are REALLY close to crossing the line.  Let's remember please that "nice matters"

I was at a graduation party for a friend's son last night. They have an absolutely charming and utterly adorable one year old English bulldog, so of course he subject of dogs came up. When Lara asked me if I'd seen the Dog Whisperer on TV, I replied that I'd seen him but made no comment about my opinions of his show. I wanted to hear what a "non-dog" person who had read no training books and had never even taken a single obedience class would take from Cesar's show.

Lara thought that Cesar's assertion that it's the humans, not the dog that need to change was a "revelation." She talked about how she learned about massage from CM and found that rubbing Lexi's shoulders makes her "catatonic" so she'll massage her when they need to calm her down enough to trim nails or clean her face. Lara thought that "being calm and pretending Lexi isn't even there" (her words) made her much easier on leash.

Not a single comment about alpha rolls, or scruffing. And they're are not people with an aversion to being physical. I know they spanked their kids when they were younger and thought "rubbing their nose in it" was the way to house train pups. They actually became less physical and thought more about how to change the dogs behavior by changing their own behavior by watching CM. Are they completely "rehabilitated" totally positive reinforcement now? Oh, heck no. But they're a few steps closer to being kinder and more understanding with Lexi.

While CM may be "outdated" to most of us here, he's still decades ahead of J.Q. Public who hasn't read a dog book or even heard of a clicker. You can't change people overnight, but I can't complain about progress, even if it's just a little step.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I was at a graduation party for a friend's son last night. They have an absolutely charming and utterly adorable one year old English bulldog, so of course he subject of dogs came up. When Lara asked me if I'd seen the Dog Whisperer on TV, I replied that I'd seen him but made no comment about my opinions of his show. I wanted to hear what a "non-dog" person who had read no training books and had never even taken a single obedience class would take from Cesar's show.

Lara thought that Cesar's assertion that it's the humans, not the dog that need to change was a "revelation." She talked about how she learned about massage from CM and found that rubbing Lexi's shoulders makes her "catatonic" so she'll massage her when they need to calm her down enough to trim nails or clean her face. Lara thought that "being calm and pretending Lexi isn't even there" (her words) made her much easier on leash.

Not a single comment about alpha rolls, or scruffing. And they're are not people with an aversion to being physical. I know they spanked their kids when they were younger and thought "rubbing their nose in it" was the way to house train pups. They actually became less physical and thought more about how to change the dogs behavior by changing their own behavior by watching CM. Are they completely "rehabilitated" totally positive reinforcement now? Oh, heck no. But they're a few steps closer to being kinder and more understanding with Lexi.

While CM may be "outdated" to most of us here, he's still decades ahead of J.Q. Public who hasn't read a dog book or even heard of a clicker. You can't change people overnight, but I can't complain about progress, even if it's just a little step.

On the other hand, I work with a guy who *loves* CM and is a HUGE fan of the alpha roll.  Everytime he would bring up Cesar, he would talk about how he alpha rolled his dogs for this or that.  He even declared his 10 wk old puppy "aggressive" because she mouthed his hand when he alpha rolled her.

It goes both ways.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

On the other hand, I work with a guy who *loves* CM and is a HUGE fan of the alpha roll.  Everytime he would bring up Cesar, he would talk about how he alpha rolled his dogs for this or that.  He even declared his 10 wk old puppy "aggressive" because she mouthed his hand when he alpha rolled her.

It goes both ways.

And on the other hand, oops humans have only two hands, I have never met anyone in person who has watched or was influenced by CM and I am out in the dog world all the time.  What is one to think?  I take that back, I did see one of my rescuers attempt an "alpha roll" on a dog I fostered.  It was not done right.

Please do have fun with this.

 
I am. It wouldn't matter if you did mean me in that Cabal 3, or any other characterization. This is a forum, the internet, a media of written word, for the most part. But I'll take the worst barb anyone can sling and roll with it. For example, should someone call me a treat-dispensing butler I would add to that and say, yes, and I'm really tall, too. It's sort of the same spirit as when someone accused KISS of being sell-outs. Mr. Simmons said, "Yes, every night in every venue we play." Point being, to own it.
 
What I really mean is that I know this system works and no amount of rhetoric, hyperbole, or one-line characterization can change what I see with my own eyes and reason with my own three brain cells. And when I recycle a phrase of yours, I'm not trying to bust your butt, so to speak. I'm having fun with it and I hope you realize that I don't mean disrespect and that I am also cursed with logic, which is mathematical in basis. Oops, I mentioned math, again. Now, see, that was also a joke. But it can be taken as a barb against another question, which it is not. It's me having fun in my own freaky fashion.
 

Chuffy, I almost had to increment the number to Four and include myself in the group

 
At least you're appreciating the fun of owning a characterization.
 

It would be nice if Spiritsdogs would fully read a post and comprehend it.

So, are you saying I am too much of a dolt to draw my own conclusions contrary to any disclaimers? 

Anyway, if you're going to insult me by suggesting I have no interest and lack the intelligence to comprehend a post properly written in English, it would be nice if you spelled my login name correctly.  And, while you're at it, re-read your own posts now and again to see if they are grammatically correct and reflect what you are really trying to say. 

one member crossing over to training but in disguise

Gee, I hope the mods don't find out LOL.  If someone has so little courage in their convictions that they need to disguise themselves, I pity them.  Perhaps they are having fun, and I'm sure they are giving you a laugh, but in reality, the forum is the loser when that sort of thing goes on behind the scenes.  And, to be honest, you couldn't wait to "out" that it was happening, so if I were that person, I'd be awfully nice to DPU lest you lose posting privileges next time he gets mad at you.  Have some fun with that.

I did see one of my rescuers attempt an "alpha roll" on a dog I fostered.  It was not done right.

And does that a$$ still rescue for your group?????  Or are you someone who looks the other way when someone does that to a dog?

ORIGINAL: ron2

Chuffy, I almost had to increment the number to Four and include myself in the group

At least you're appreciating the fun of owning a characterization.

DPU says I'm not in - I want in - ron, please ---- pretty please ---- assign me a number, will ya? [sm=bow2.gif]

This thread may reach 4,000 hits and yes the content did not turn out the way the OP envisioned.  If I was extremely passionate about Clicker Training, I would take advantage of the one time high volume traffic here by creating other threads highlighting the benefits and fun of Clicker Training.  Heavy emotions do cloud good judgment.

ORIGINAL: ron2

... It's me having fun in my own freaky fashion.

And that's part of your charm! [sm=beret.gif]