Independent Thinking - CM revisited

Stardog85, I hope the brick comment was not in reference to me.  You are the 1st person on this board willing to discuss the true nature of postive reinforcement training as it is used by the average dog owner.  My concerns, not scientific based but man to dog relationship based, are real and I hope you address the time element question of -P and +P as it is unintentional introduced into Clicker training.  I respect your courage and forthright. 

For those that are interested in the courses Stardog85 mentioned, stay tuned because of the University of Illinois has initiated a major program in Distance Education.  I am not sure of Purdue's progress in this area but UIUC and Purdue have collaborated many times in this area, especially in the area of public health.  I happen to work at the Center for the Advancement of Distance Education and have dealings with Purdue from time to time.

DPU the comment wasn't directed at you - you actually want to know more, which is better than others I have talked to about training and behavior in similar contexts. []

I too will have to keep an eye on UIUC's distance ed stuff - Purdue has a distance ed program, but I don't think many VCS (veterinary clinical sciences) and ANSC (Animal Science) classes are up and running yet.

For those of you interested in behavior in a shelter setting, the HSUS offers a 3 part series on animal shelter behavior via Humane University online that is quite well respected in the field. []

ORIGINAL: stardog85

For those of you interested in behavior in a shelter setting, the HSUS offers a 3 part series on animal shelter behavior via Humane University online that is quite well respected in the field. []

 
This is what I mean about courage, I thought I was the only one on this board that talks with HSUS.  They always seem to respond to me in a timely fashion but when talking to the people that work within HSUS, they tell me things "off the record".  A few members here have given me the impression that HSUS is not liked here.

A few members here have given me the impression that HSUS is not liked here.

There are some people who are unimpressed by HSUS' choice of a former PETA employee as their director.  And, I think it was mentioned that quite a bit of the money they take in is used other than to save animals.  Personally, I'm not a PETA fan, but I have no problem with HSUS spending money on education, for example, or on other programs not directly related to rescue.  I like the fact that I can direct people to the "puppy mill" part of their website, for example, to educate them about that.
Before there were too many animal behavior programs directly related to canine studies, most of us who wanted education that was relevant, got it in one of the behavioral sciences, like psychology, or got degrees in closely related sciences, like zoology or biology.  Those educational experiences are not, IMO, trumped by animal science or behavior courses, they are an adjunct to the total body of knowledge that comes from reading, going to seminars, attending continuing education workshops, taking individual classes, distance education, videos, etc.  Those of us who continually seek knowledge in the field have usually managed to find it. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

...to the total body of knowledge that comes from reading, going to seminars, attending continuing education workshops, taking individual classes, distance education, videos, etc.  Those of us who continually seek knowledge in the field have usually managed to find it. 

 
And we need to add to the total body of knowledge, one#%92s observations and experiences.  The dog benefits when book learning and instructions from second parties are applied, practiced, and reconciled with personal experiences.  It is the reconciliation that fosters independent thinking and the creation of modifying conventions that ultimately benefit the dog in the home.  These modifying conventions, if not dismissed, serve as the agent for change for new knowledge and improvements in current thinking.  It is a cyclical process and some get it right and some get it wrong.  I like to think most get it right. 

Can you show me a reliable link where it says that?

 
I don't exactly have a link but several of us used traditional methods of training. I have used the scruff with Shadow.
 
Several of us, from Spiritdogs on down to little ole' me tried clicker training and were so pleased with the results, it was almost as if there was no comparison. A number of us have "cross-over" dogs.
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

I have been asked several time by Purdue to participate in programs as they relate to the Great Dane breed.  If I was there I certainly would have probed the 2 CM fans with questions.  Find out why and if I had the same stance as described in the post, I would have educated. 

BTW, I gradudated from Purdue and now work for the University of Illinois.  Guess which university is higher ranked for vet care, veterinary studies, animal studies, and animal care.

She isn't changing the subject - you are trying to compare one vet school to another, which is in general pretty ridiculous for most of the schools since they are by and large equivalent, just different in different areas - I am curious where exactly you are getting nthis info on which school is higher ranked. Far as I can tell, there are only three schools ranked by US News and World, and Purdue and UofIll  aren't one or two of those three.

And we need to add to the total body of knowledge, one#%92s observations and experiences.

 
That is very true, although to a point. While a person's observations and experiences are very important, you really need to have an underlying understanding of WHAT you are meant to be observing, and what it means.
 
If you grow up making your own education as you go along, and you come to your "own" conclusions about the behaviour of organisms, you are going to forever believe things that might be totally incorrect. And honestly, this shows very strongly in CM. He has a lot of ideas, yes, and if what he says is true then it shows very strongly that he grew up basing a lot of what he knows on his observations. But not a whole lot more than that. []
 
The power of observation is vast, but unless you know what you are observing it is also one of the weakest tools available, if you do not have the skills of doing it properly.

the University of Illinois has initiated a major program in Distance Education.

I may be wrong, but I think that may be where PACLeader did his Master's in Animal Behavior.  If so, how come more people on the CM side of things don't listen when he speaks?

I don't think you can divorce the quadrants from any method.  But, as Karen Pryor says, "extinction is an aversive".   So, we are not always considering punishers in the same way as the CM group might think of them.  We are considering them based on the scientific explanation of what a punisher does.  Kim's post is most relevant in that the lack of education, and a common lexicon to describe what we are doing, matters a great deal when we try to discuss these things in a rational way.

ORIGINAL: ron2

I don't exactly have a link but several of us used traditional methods of training. I have used the scruff with Shadow.

Several of us, from Spiritdogs on down to little ole' me tried clicker training and were so pleased with the results, it was almost as if there was no comparison. A number of us have "cross-over" dogs.

Thats why i said to Ed to include the words "in this forum" on his estatement (which still does not indicate if its the same with the "general population")

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan
The power of observation is vast, but unless you know what you are observing it is also one of the weakest tools available, if you do not have the skills of doing it properly.

The thought is that degrees give one license to proper observation?

If you grow up making your own education as you go along, and you come to your "own" conclusions about the behaviour of organisms, you are going to forever believe things that might be totally incorrect.

Wow. So only people who are academically trained have the ability to come to sensible conclusions about the world?

I can't accept this proposal. Some of the smartest and most methodical and disciplined thinkers I know are near-illiterate farmers, and some of the most close-minded folks I know are academicians, particularly in the scientific fields.

I'm sure Kim, or someone else, would like to clarify this statement so it doesn't seem to dismiss experiential knowlege so casually.[]

Observations and how we interprete them?  If we interprete in err, can make some continual issues between dog and man.  And not understand what we are doing wrong if we don't get educated on this.  That is my guess anyways, as to what Kim is talking about.  We are looking at a guy who is using a tv show to reach people, he has a lot of questionable attributes to be professing that he knows, and lots of area that is in the gray area.   To be an instructor, you need an education.
 
Also, I think it is important to really care about dogs and their well being, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and socialogically.
 
Those are some neat classes that stardog has taken. Those are the kinds of courses I think that you would want to see on a good instructor, as well as a sense of natural ability in working well with dogs.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan


If you grow up making your own education as you go along, and you come to your "own" conclusions about the behaviour of organisms, you are going to forever believe things that might be totally incorrect. And honestly, this shows very strongly in CM. He has a lot of ideas, yes, and if what he says is true then it shows very strongly that he grew up basing a lot of what he knows on his observations. But not a whole lot more than that. []

 
Disagree 100%, he reads as much as anybody here, he suggests a good amount of books to read at the end of his own book 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I may be wrong, but I think that may be where PACLeader did his Master's in Animal Behavior.  If so, how come more people on the CM side of things don't listen when he speaks?

You would have to be right next to each person at the moment they are reading his posts, and not even that way you would be close to make that statement true, since you cant read their minds therefore that estatement is only speculation