Independent Thinking - CM revisited

Wow, this thread got a little....bleh, as usual.
 
Anyhow, to answer the original poster's question: I'll keep it simple.
 
I dislike the show because:
 
1) I don't agree with his training methods.
2) I don't agree with his training tools.
3) I don't feel he knows that much at all about dog behaviour or body language. What he calls "calm", I call "submissive", "anxious", or "learned helplessness", as I have witnessed in some of his shows.
4) He promotes certain psychological behaviour mod protocols (like flooding) that I do not agree with. And he doesn't always USE the established behavioural terminology correctly.
 

Kim--I think you're smart and I especially agree with number 3 and 4 of your post. Turning away from CM and Koehler (I just can't stop with Koehler) and turning, instead, to The Cautious Canine, has helped me shy dog tremendously.
 
Thank you.
 
[]

What an interesting thread. I'm just going to stick to the original topic myself, if i delved into much else my post would quickly reach novel length. []

Reasons I don't like CM's show/methods:

- He touts himself as an expert with no actual background other than growing up with free roaming dogs and his highly publicized "successes" (I don't call myself an animal psychologist or behaviorist and I have a BS in Animal Science, minor in psych, specialization in animal behavior/wellbeing, have trained clients for the past 4 or 5 years, and have been a clicker trainer for 7 years (owned dogs for 12 years), not to mention accomplishing the rehab of the Amazing Maggie Mae, studying for the CPDT exam, and helping with various classes/courses on behavior and welfare here at Purdue [])

- In interviews he's said that he does the show for entertainment purposes, yet his actions seem to speak differently

- He uses flooding and positive punishment (albeit with decent timing)

- He refers to almost every single dog he works with as dominant (and seriously pack theory is so innacurate, especially when applied between humans and animals rather than dog to dog)

- One word - editing! Ever seen episodes where one minute he's working with a dog and the next he's wearing a bandaid?

- He's reintroduced alpha rolling and scruffing (yes I know he implements it "better" than JQP but JQP doesn't see that and is notorious for not listening to warnings)

I'm helping out with a behavior course here at Purdue right now and today was the "problem dog" practicum for the students. Of the 14 dog/owner pairs that participated by bringing their animals in for the course participants to work with, 2 were big CM fans - I recall the 7 year old daughter of one group asking her mother if she would get to meet the dog whisperer today and another owner asking one of the lecturers/organizers of the course whether we were going to be using CM methods since he really likes them. Signs of potentially dangerous stuff imo!!!

ORIGINAL: stardog85

I'm helping out with a behavior course here at Purdue right now and today was the "problem dog" practicum for the students. Of the 14 dog/owner pairs that participated by bringing their animals in for the course participants to work with, 2 were big CM fans - I recall the 7 year old daughter of one group asking her mother if she would get to meet the dog whisperer today and another owner asking one of the lecturers/organizers of the course whether we were going to be using CM methods since he really likes them. Signs of potentially dangerous stuff imo!!!

 
I have been asked several time by Purdue to participate in programs as they relate to the Great Dane breed.  If I was there I certainly would have probed the 2 CM fans with questions.  Find out why and if I had the same stance as described in the post, I would have educated. 
 
BTW, I gradudated from Purdue and now work for the University of Illinois.  Guess which university is higher ranked for vet care, veterinary studies, animal studies, and animal care.

Even a top rated university hasn't got a corner on the market of excellence when it comes to animal behavior research.  Some studies are great, others not so great, wherever they are done.  The overall reputation of a university provides no empirical evidence that a study is either flawed, or not flawed in some way. 

DPU - it would've been nice to talk to these two people, I agree. Unfortunately coordinating the movements of 14 mostly dog aggressive dogs got in the way.[]

Does it really matter which school is ranked higher? Both schools have great programs and strong staff in the field and both universities would be fabulous resources in the field of behavior - I offered my location as an identifier that I wasn't just spouting off info from an unreliable source.

ORIGINAL: stardog85

- He touts himself as an expert with no actual background other than growing up with free roaming dogs and his highly publicized "successes" (I don't call myself an animal psychologist or behaviorist and I have a BS in Animal Science, minor in psych, specialization in animal behavior/wellbeing, have trained clients for the past 4 or 5 years, and have been a clicker trainer for 7 years (owned dogs for 12 years), not to mention accomplishing the rehab of the Amazing Maggie Mae, studying for the CPDT exam, and helping with various classes/courses on behavior and welfare here at Purdue [])

 
Stardog85, you seem to make the education level of CM part of your critique.  When presented the same comment to you, you say it is irrelevant so why not for CM.

Oh the education of people who call themselves experts matters a TON but not which school someone goes to - the content of program itself is more important. No where did I say that it didn't matter what my education level was (not to mention that i don't consider myself an expert or bill myself as such) so I am confused as to how you interpreted my last statement about school rankings as such.

Read the post prior to yours.

Wait a second.
 
I could hang up a shingle and "practice" as a therapist.  So long as I don't make the claim that I'm degreed, so long as I don't make any FALSE claims, it's perfectly legal where I am.  And exactly what I would be doing is PRACTICING.  A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing and the classes I've taken and the books that I've read, and the armchair shinking I've done with family, friends and co-workers, stated as "this is My opinion, or here's what I think I would do" constitutes some experience but little KNOWLEDGE.  People have come to me with their problems for as long as I can remember.  The department head at my college in my Dependency Disorders degree program told me that I was one of the most instinctive students he had ever met.  He actually said "you are really GOOD at this sh*t".  He was and remains the head of one of the hospitals inpatient programs.
 
So, I could hang a shingle, I could work with folks and "help" them through their issues and make money doing it. And I'd probably be "really good at this sh*t", but I would feel like a fraud and I might do something that would make matters a whole lot worse.  My life experiences DO NOT QUALIFY me, regardless of law, to hang up a shingle.
 
I don't think that CM's life experiences qualify him either.
 
You can't claim to be something you aren't and not be able to back it up with more than years of experience in the field.  It's not honest.  Even if you SAY you have no formal training, it's still not honest.

ORIGINAL: JM

I am probably going to hell for saying this...but to me there is a difference between a dog and  a dog.

One being 7 pounds, another being 70 pounds.

Of course it is easy for me to intimidate the 7 pound pom.  Not so with the 70 pound Zeus.

ETA..I forget what what my point was (I'm old)

I vote this the cutest response to this thread!  LOL

To me, in line with what many have expressed on this thread, the forcing of a creature into a behavior by "flooding" or any other physically harsh method is in need of some real scrutiny.

We have people in the public that are able to just go and purchase a dog at a pet store, or a breeder, without having any qualifications, proof of good habitat or run area, appropriate family situation etc...  Unaware, uneducated, uninformed, naive regular day to day people get these animals. (they may invest a bunch of money up front, with all of this lack of knowledge too)...  The dog is immediatly labelled "a biter", "retaliating" "stubborn" "angry" "crazy" and everything that is furthest from the solution to help homogenize the poor, lonely, dog into each of these households.

The best kind of program would be one that does deliver informative, teaching information about these dogs.  The goal needs to be instrumental in helping to prevent the devastating effects of forced, harsh methods toward real understanding. 

Terminology that is understood and clearly not confabulated is essential.  People that are not "in the know" or are having a hard time already with a new dog, do not need a heap of more confusion.  What is needed is clear and concise information that is readily handed to them to at once begin to understand their dog and their own behaviors and how each effects the other.

Most abnormal psychological situations do seem to be induced by inadequate preparation to begin with.  The results seem traumatic.  What is needed is basic building blocks that are going to be conducive creating caring dog owners, that understand their own responsibility in care and teaching.  And the depth of that.  This kind of data could be delivered on a tv show with better range of teaching skills, other than what is expressed by CM.  

It would be a great step for the dog caring folks to put this on curricula for school age children and/or older students.

Abuse, neglect of animals in family/individual's homes is often connected to that of the people also living in that domicile. (edit: abuse/neglect of animals and abuse/neglect of other family members in that household is an observation that is not uncommon, by social workers and law enforcement) 
 
Teaching and better understanding at the grassroots would be a tremendous advantage to gain way in this realm.

Pups, and even the few adults I foster, do not leave my house without a little "book" that I've prepared.  Absolutely every step of their lives with me is documented, every training technique, ever phrase or key word that I use, you name it, it's in there.  I provide new families with my phone number and request that they call me with ANY questions, no matter how silly they seem.  I promise that I won't think they are "dumb" and explain that every dog has its own particular quirks and that I've seen many of them and have some ideas on how to handle just about anything.  I always suggest positive trainers and strongly encourage getting the animal into the very next available session.
 
Any animal that has been in my care, leaves with a piece of my heart and I sure don't want any of them ending up in a situation where they NEED someone like CM.

What thoughtful responses, backed by experience AND study, you've given us, Stardog. Thank you![]

ORIGINAL: nfowler

What thoughtful responses, backed by experience AND study, you've given us, Stardog. Thank you![]

 
I liked Stardogs post as well.
 
What are some of the titles of courses offered at Purdue?  It would be wonderful if they became more mainstream.

Thanks for the kudos guys - sometimes it can seem like I'm talking to a brick wall when I talk to others about the scientific basis for what and why I do what I do. []

In the process of attaining my specialization/degree/minor I've taken:

Animal Welfare
Animal Behavior
Intro to Ethology
Intro to Learning
Cognitive Psych
Current Issues in Animal Science
Applied Small Animal Behavior
Seminars in Animal Welfare and Human Animal Interactions
Ethics and Animals
(and your basic Animal Science classes in nutrition, physiology, etc. of course along with intro level psych for my minor; for one of my certificates you also must be involved in a research project related to behavior/welfare - I chose one about motivation in swine)

If I had the time, I would've also taken:

Animal Issues and the Media
Behavior in Domesticated Animals
Behavior Genetics and Evolution
The Evolution of Behavior

I also started Campus Dog Owners Group, helped with behavior clinic puppy classes, and was a departmental Ambassador on campus. I was pretty busy. []