Dog trainers or dog behavorists

Pour me one too...extra butter on the popcorn. [8D]
 
 

Boy, I dunno.  There's an awful lot of chocolate around right now....and chocolate beats popcorn any day of the week......

I love it!  spiritdogs can't resist making yet another crack about CM in the CM section, which is clearly against the rules made for this part of the forum.  Does she get any kind of warning  from the mods at all?  No, of course not!  Instead, glenmar turns the thread into a CM bash free for all, thus making spiritdogs immune!  This is classic!

I think it would be best to stick to the topic and avoid personal attacks as Glenda suggested (she is the mod after all).  It is very sad that a new member cannot even ask a simple question things starting to head down a nasty road.  I can totally understand starting a new thread as opposed to using the seach  funtion and reading through 27836954877628347 pages of CM arguments.  Good lord, who has time for that?  Angelique has managed to set a good example--I think following it would be fun, don't you?

Let me be real clear on something.  This is an area that I would prefer not to moderate.  Not because I have a problem editing or correcting a post, but because SOME of you have made it clear that you do not WANT me here.  To some of you, because I'm +R leaning and don't understand the appeal of CM, I am the enemy and anything I say or do here is seen as evidence that I just flat hate CM and his followers.  Not the case, but that seems to be the perception.  And this whole "the mod is playing favorites and letting so and so break the rules cuz she LIKES that person" is a big pile of horse crap.
 
I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.
 
To be real honest, Anne is NOT the only person who needed some serious RED INK.  I didn't see her post as offensive, but, then again, I don't see things quite the way that some of you folks do.  I won't name names, but ANOTHER member has been acting like a little kid having a tantrum, but somehow that's ok since s/he is "one of you"????  Another is taking pot shots at me, but that's ok too because s/he is ONE of you?????  The general forum rules still apply.
 
It has been suggested by a forum member who IS "one of you" that I ease up on editing this section and closing threads in this section.  I've not come to this area in a long time, until it became my responsibility, because I don't like the overall attitudes and the bickering here.  And, after a few posts, I decided that it's better that I just sit back and watch this section and not try to ask questions, since they are invariably seen by some as a set up or an attempt to stir the pot.  If I'm not involved, and I'm not asking questions that can be taken the wrong way, I'm more able to be objective about the behaviors I see.  But, still, I've kept in mind that I should likely hang back a bit and not edit the same kind of stuff that I wouldn't hesitate to edit in another section.  But, I've been respecting the advice of the person who is trying to help keep this section from erupting.
 
As I said, pending Kelly's decision on moving this thread, there is a temporary suspension of the rules on this thread only.  All can offer opinions, all can make their own arguements for and against, BUT there will be no personal attacks and there will be no ugliness and hatefulness.  If you can act like adults and not nasty little children, you can have your discussion.  You can debate.  But if you get ugly and personal, as some already have, then the thread WILL be closed.
 
I'm trying to be fair and impartial, but some of you make it difficult.  And, for the record, many things have been directed at ME that I would have deleted in a heartbeat had they been directed at another forum member.  I'm not going to do that anymore.  I too am a forum member and I deserve the same respect that anyone else does.  So, if you unload on me and make nasty accusations, you'll get edited just as you would if you unloaded on anyone else.  I'm not your personal kickball.
 
Have at it....this is a once in a lifetime kind of deal, but keep it clean and keep it kind.

As a member of this forum, I am entitled to post anywhere on it as long as I remain civil.  So, when  a newbie comes and asks for an "opinion", I feel justified in offering mine, which is that CM is all hype, and little in the way of legitimate behavioral modification.  Some of the things he does will invariably get owners in trouble in the long run.  And, frankly, seeing him drag some poor frightened dog out from under a chair only to get bitten himself is the height of making the most elementary mistake!
I find it commendable that Angelique supports a lack of censorship.  Doing less means that only one opinion is heard, and, quite honestly, that is the best way I know to inhibit learning.  The curiosity about how our dogs' minds work, and the best ways to intervene when there is a behavior problem should be the subject for infinite research, not for dividing people into sections so that no one can make a remark that suggests that the CM "god" may not be so omnipotent after all.  I never liked this section from square one, and it was only the constant "personal" attacks that got it placed here, not the fact that this is subject matter so important that it deserves a special space.  In posting here, I have had my qualifications questioned, been bahahahaha'd at, and had the word "trainer" used in quotations, presumable to reference my lack of knowledge. so many times that I can't even count, and been attacked on the basis of my scientific knowledge and degree by people who can't even spell (that many typo's - I doubt it).  They question the validity of a degree, forgetting that I also have years of hands on dog experience, and in the shelter environment, not just with little Fauntleroy's Golden Retriever.  So, gloves off, this section is often filled with people who don't seek knowledge, but who practice idolatry, and maybe, who practice it based on ethnicity or machismo, and not extensive experience or results.  Whatever CM does, they think, is what needs to be done.  I say challenge yourself to expand beyond his limited sphere.  Read and study.  Volunteer at your local shelter, rescue, go to seminars, work with breeds other than your own.  What works for one dog certainly doesn't work for others, but few of you have what I would call an extensive "tool box".  Once you do, you may still like CM, or you may find that you like the methods of other trainers, behaviorists, and dog behavior experts.  But, if you don't, you will always be arguing from a point of relative weakness.  
I also think you have disrespected Glenda in ways that you wouldn't do if she was a CM groupie.  To be honest, someone should have red inked much of this section long ago, since it seems that any deviation from the accepted hero worship is met with barbs and attacks.  I, for one, don't care.  I like a good debate on solid issues and am not happy when the threads degenerate, but I am also not happy when information is presented showing only one side of an issue - does the Illusion collar work, is it advantageous to have the dog and handler "master the walk"?   To only allow certain points of view is censorship.  If you want your opinions censored, why are you on an internet forum?

Opps, another rule just came to mind on this suspension of the rules deal.  Lets avoid inflammatory language, such as CM groupies, that is sure to bring a volley of return fire.

I'm so excited!! Another debate!!!
 
I'll move this thread to general chat after all the OP did ask opinions of other trainers then CM which deservees more input then debate of personalities on this forum

**Personal debate** Content removed
 
Continued behavior will result in suspension

Refer to the OP, stay on topic

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Opps, another rule just came to mind on this suspension of the rules deal.  Lets avoid inflammatory language, such as CM groupies, that is sure to bring a volley of return fire.

You have my apologies - I took it literally when I was told gloves off. []  I sometimes just don't know what to call people who have such a one sided view of this person, but I will try to do better.  Would CM aficionados be OK?
BTW, in case some of you aren't aware, you can see that Glenda is just as likely to chastise me as anyone else.  The one thing I suspect she will not abide is blatant disrespect from one member to another.  So, take your boxing gloves off regarding the issues, but put the kid gloves on before you call someone a name, perhaps.

Back to the question of opinion on CM.  I classify him as a flash in the pan.  Just someone who is charismatic, ethnic, personally likeable.  But, not as a serious student of dog behavior.  If people want to emulate someone, my vote would go to Karen Overall, or others with her background and training.  I would sooner see newbies here pay attention to our own member, PACLeader, than CM.  At least you will get educated advice.

Forum rules exisit in EVERY area, there will be "No Gloves off" or the allowance to run amuck....you all know the rules stick with them or find yourself on a time out

Well i just wanted to avoid the inevitable, but is ok, lets continue then
 
I think CM is great with dog's, he sees stuff that others dont or will never have idea that exist, when CM came to this country he saw that dogs were having way too many problems than in any other countries and i agree, he saw this and according to that he decided to come up with an strategy on how be able to help this poor american dogs, "Excersice, discipline and affection" was the answer since he saw that people in america were giving affection, affection, affection only
 
Now i think also that he is great since he does not rely in treats as much as he can to avoid the dog see the human as just someone who provides the food, as just another member of the pack who is there to open the fridge, CM does not think dogs are made of glass and will get the biggest trauma ever if they get corrections, CM is a leader of the pack, not a follower, he is in charge of the discipline, not only the pack's butler in charge of bringing the food while another dog is in charge, which happens a lot, CM does not believe that if you control the resources you are the leader, not at all, just like female lions provide the food but they are not the leaders but the male, dogs are not lions but the idea is the same
 
CM uses treats in very rare ocasions since he does not want to depend on bribing the dog to make him follow his rules, i think this tecnique is important to avoid the dog to manipulate you in a way that you just become a machine just ready to give treats away, dogs are really inteligent, if they know they can get a treat by doing something bad they will do it, ie. dog chewing couch, stops, gets a treat for stopping, therefore dogs will chew again knowing he will get food when he stops. In those cases CM rathers just to let the dog know that is wrong, no bribing, no bad behavior
 
CM does not spend money on treats which makes him spend the money in something more productive for the dogs, for a regular person thats great for their wallets, you dont need nothing else than the right pack leader attitude, is faster and cheaper, what else you could ask for?
 
Even Ian Dunbar one of the principal trainers for +R techniques agrees that corrections like the ones CM uses will give you a better success level rather than +R only, and of course if one of the main +R persons says it is because then corrections are not bad at all []
 
Thats my opinion, that is what i think CM is or is not, not talking about anyone else but him

Back to the question of opinion on CM. I classify him as a flash in the pan. Just someone who is charismatic, ethnic, personally likeable. But, not as a serious student of dog behavior.

 
 
"A Flash in the Pan".........[sm=rofl.gif]
 
Look what I missed by coloring a couple of eggs and trying to have a good Easter weekend...........[8D]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Back to the question of opinion on CM. I classify him as a flash in the pan. Just someone who is charismatic, ethnic, personally likeable. But, not as a serious student of dog behavior. If people want to emulate someone, my vote would go to Karen Overall, or others with her background and training. I would sooner see newbies here pay attention to our own member, PACLeader, than CM. At least you will get educated advice.

[] I have much respect for how generous you are in sharing your great experience and knowledge in working with dogs. Your advice got me through some early experiences with my reactive dog, when I first joined this forum. I get where you've formed your opinions about +R training, but I'm unclear where your opinions on Millan come from, so I'm earnestly asking. Please don't consider this a "challenge." I just want to learn well! I'm learning the pro-Millan arguments beautifully, I'd like to learn the downside beautifully as well. []

Given your persistence and the passionate tone in much of your objection to Millan, I wonder what you are basing your opinions on. It would help me to understand your position if you'd be willing to share the sources of your research. How many of Millan's shows have you seen? Have you read his website, articles, and book? Have you ever met him or worked with him?

I'm not asking what protocols you object to, the archives hold your opinions on that. I'm asking where you go to inform yourself about him. For example, in regards to his alpha rolling, have you seen him do one in life? On TV? Or do you respond to the concept of "someone who would do the the alpha roll" in general, not with specific regards to Millan's execution of it? Where did you learn that he is not engaged in serious study or scholarly pursuits?

Although, in your statement above, it sounds as if you're disqualifying him because he's "ethnic" and popular, I can't imagine that's what you meant and wanted to ask you to clarify the actual *basis* of your opinions. You often state, like above, that your mission is to alert newbies, and get them properly educated. As a newbie myself, it would round out my education to know what are the sources of your scholarship in regards to this topic.

Thanks in advance. []