The Limits of Clicker Training

deleted by author.

ORIGINAL: gunny1
"the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward."

To be a little more precise. I am playing tug with the dog, i ask the dog to out. The dog complies....REWARD IMMEDIATLY  WITH A BITE!!!!

From a canine learning perspective, this is exactly how you would teach a dog that if the perp moves, he needs to be stopped and the dog is happy with his "toy", so keeps it until the officer asks for the "out".  If you reward the "out" with a bite 100 times, and then "out" the dog once without the bite as a reward, he will still bite and hold and wait for the "out" command, because he is sufficiently proofed in that response.  He will "out" reliably because he knows that's how to keep the game happening.
If you keep asking the dog to "out" every time, and the game stops, he will become unreliable about "outing" (why would he want to stop the game he likes so much?).
And that is how you save cops' lives. 

He will "out" reliably because he knows that's how to keep the game happening.

This is how you keep keenness alive and even increase it as the rules get more complex, in herding. Stopping is hard and obeying a recall is even harder. But if they are rewarded many times in a row with a return to working, they learn to come happily. You haven't lived until you've seen a dog LEAVE a set of sheep, 400 yards away from its handler, then whirl around eagerly on the command to "LOOK BACK" and find the set hidden another 400 to 600 yards behind him (800 to 1000 yards from the handler). This is taught right at hand by calling off and then being allowed back to the sheep.

I don't see how on earth it would ever teach the dog that leaving the stock is the best reward. Shepherds are hardliners about that sort of thing. A failed protection dog is usually made into an active pet. Dogs who leave their shepherds in the lurch meet untimely ends.[]

ETA the quote, oops.

That's also how you teach a dog who isn't naturally a retriever to retrieve. If the dog goes and gets the ball, you have to reward with another throw immediately. They have to be shown that the reward for "ending" the game is the continuation of the game--the ball becomes a rapidly fleeing object again. A lot of people make the mistake of trying to tease the dog with the ball by holding it, waving around, hiding it behind their back, doing the "fake throw", but none of those things reward a dog for the retrieve. The only way I can keep up a game of fetch with my dogs is to throw that ball the second they bring it back to me. Otherwise, I just ended the game they were playing for no reason, the ball has become boring again and there are more interesting things to sniff out there.

It's not really as important of a skill in the real world as herding or bite, but for someone with large active dogs they need tire out, having a dog who isn't a natural retriever is a huge pain in the bum and teaching a retrieve is pretty important.

I find this set of postings (gunny1) quite fascinating.  I am very happy to find  a poster who is familiar and uses the operant conditioning and emphasis on positive reinforcement strategies.  I find the responses enlightening and the  videos fascinating.  My only bais, I like a narrower head [].

ORIGINAL: gunny1

I am do not work for any goverment agency as a dog trainer. I train dogs, thier for I am. You can pick apart my qualifications to make posts like this.

Pick them apart? I'm only trying to find out your qualifications, and the only way to do that is to ask.

But before you do...Go pick up a copy of "how dogs learn" By Buash and Baily. By the way great book to anyone looking to read up on the science of learning.

I always find it interesting when people think they know what I have and haven't read, just because I may not agree with them.

As for the game has to end. Yes it does. But not with an out command. Get it! if you constantly make the dog out at the end of the game. They will stop outing, especially high drive dogs. so you what i do is pick thier front legs of the ground by cradling them. or I trade them for a treat back at the car or the kennel. But inever command them to out and then take thier toy.

Then why is it your own videos just proved my point? Dog stays on bite, dog is commanded to out (notice no clicker and no other reward was shown), dog outed and from what I could tell, it was over. What did I miss?

as for teaching the out. And going limp, Do you know what proofing is. IF you do I am sure you could figure out that you have to proof the out. The going limp part, is part of the teaching phase. This is how get them to let go without conflict. As puppies
you thought I meant outing was the best reward in your next argument. read my post again, then again. then again. And then you will be able to comprehend that the rewrd is not the out but the bite.

Proofing? lol Never heard of it.[] And perhaps you should explain yourself better and not assume it's who's reading your post that...doesn't get it. And so we're clear on this, I'm saying the bite is the reward, your own videos just proved that , so what are you saying? I so I reread your post, guess what, no mention of puppies.  As to outing to get a reward, if I understand you right, your saying if the dog bites and outs on command you give it another bite which is the reward, or your "cradling"  the dog when he/she outs is the reward. Be cause again, from watching *your* videos, it's easy to see that the dog cares more about going after the bite than *your* reward. If this weren't true, you just call the dog off and he/she would happily out, jump into your arms, and not care that the *suit* (suspect) is still there. That's not what i'm seeing in your vids. Oh and I find it interesting that you talk about this in the clicker thread, but earlier you stated this, "I mark or click (i say mark or click becuae I do not use a clicker, i use a marker word.) What exactly was the mark being used in you vids, I must have missed it.

"the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward."

Ok so your proofing, at that point, right? "and the best reward" being the bite, which has been my stance all along. However my friend, at some point the dog will have to out and the game ends.

To be a little more precise. I am playing tug with the dog, i ask the dog to out. The dog complies....REWARD IMMEDIATLY  WITH A BITE!!!!

Ok, no need to yell to make try and make your point. Again...the bite is the reward.

And your last statement has me either believeing your the worst trainer ever...or really do not know what your talking about.

LMAO you say something about *me* picking apart your post, and then you just turn nasty. That's interesting to say the least.[] Now I see who you really are.

Then after your done reading how dogs learn... I suggest you go get Obedience with out conflict, and the game thier DVDs by Ivan Balbalov. I am sure you know who he is. 3 time world champion. Best protection dog trainer in America right now. Undisputed. The best. Watch those videos See what he does with rewards and games.

Does he *clicker train*?[] Perhaps instead of just reading books you also should try watching how others in your field work.

What I see is heavy handed beating the crap out of a dog to behave. Then they expect it to be a brave. By the way here is some of my work....

That kind of training was something we never did, so if that's what you saw, now I'm getting you. Before you became the trainer, did you never meat trainers who didn't beat their dogs?

We are not working outs here so forgive the dirty biting. We are working on anaroebic grip strength

Dre
[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Dralion/2-5-07%20Grip%20work.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Dralion/2-5-07%20Grip%20work.wmv[/link]

Ann  5 weeks prego...awsome dog I know you want a puppy from her[8D]

[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Ann/Grip%20work%205%20weeks%20preggo%202-5-07.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Ann/Grip%20work%205%20weeks%20preggo%202-5-07.wmv[/link]

Darka, first time on a leg....and the craziest female malinois i have seen.

[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Darka/Grip%20work%202-5-07.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Darka/Grip%20work%202-5-07.wmv[/link]

The man wearing the suit is Danny, all but dre are his dogs.

The other guy that's me. I am generally the decoy. But Danny is more skilled than I, So he took this one.

You can see hoe the dogs are biting for. This is not about fighting or anytihng else but exercising the jaw....Dre...came in 3rd at AWMA nationals. this year.

Great vidoes, however as to this discussion, I saw no "clicking no other marker or reward" after the out, I did see that they got a second bite, so again, the bite is the reward. And while you may not be working on out, your still having them out. Now...they look a lot like they should when being called off, which is...most of the really good dogs do not release everytime on the first command.

Now, not once that i know of have I slammed you, but you choose to take a shot at me which shows there can be no further discussion with you from this point forward. So while I'll no longer respond to you post because you want this to turn nasty, I'd like to see a vid of *your* finished product. And perhaps you can show us one where you've scent trained a dog, using a clicker. I do hope your not nasy to your dogs like that when they don't do as you please.[]

Clickers are only used to teach a behavior, they are not used forever once the dog knows the behavior or behavior chain.  So, it is really no surprise that you would not have seen anyone clicking a dog that has already learned a particular behavior. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Clickers are only used to teach a behavior, they are not used forever once the dog knows the behavior or behavior chain.  So, it is really no surprise that you would not have seen anyone clicking a dog that has already learned a particular behavior. 

Yes I know, but he states that he's teaching behavior. I believe he stated in one of the videos, it was the dogs first bite. And in a clicker thread, shouldn't he be showing the *clicker* part of the training? You might have also noticed this statement, "I mark or click (i say mark or click becuae I do not use a clicker, i use a marker word."

Awsomedog, for the sake of this forum please stop trying to "chase off" any members who might actually have a lot of dog training experience and expertise. I can see it gets under your skin when someone comes on here, explains their background, and then clearly describes what training method they use complete with video clips and a thorough explanation. We all appreciate these detailed, insightful posts, especially many of us who are not involved in bite work or scenting. Instead of grasping at straws to pick apart this member's posts, questioning their qualifications (and yours would be....?), why not just enjoy the interesting description they gave. Those types of posts actually facilitate interesting discussion. Trying to "catch" people with some inconsistency in order to discredit them (eg. see your last post) just shuts everything down.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Awsomedog, for the sake of this forum please stop trying to "chase off" any members who might actually have a lot of dog training experience and expertise. I can see it gets under your skin when someone comes on here, explains their background, and then clearly describes what training method they use complete with video clips and a thorough explanation.

Hey Scout, you own a mirror? And yes...it is a forum, but that seams to escape you, when your pointing it out to me. First off i've done nothing but ask questions and then voice my opinion, something everyone here (including you) does. So get a grip. Also I took no shots at him, nor did I make any nasty comments towards him the way he did towards me. So i susgest you get your facts right buddy. As far as, "getting under my skin" goes, not even your bs can do that.

We all appreciate these detailed, insightful posts, especially many of us who are not involved in bite work or scenting. Instead of grasping at straws to pick apart this member's posts, questioning their qualifications (and yours would be....?), why not just enjoy the interesting description they gave. Those types of posts actually facilitate interesting discussion. Trying to "catch" people with some inconsistency in order to discredit them (eg. see your last post) just shuts everything down.

Oh...you mean the way you and others to towards me? Hey pot, hows your kettle?[]

Thank god for dogs, mow it's off to work I go. You have a nice day buddy.

gunny, thank you for your posts.  I found them to be very informative.  I also found them to tally with what I was told and shown by the police officer..... the "demo dog" was pretty darn scary when he went after his "target", really intense and there was no way he was giving up, no matter what that guy threw at him.  He released and went back to his handler like an arrow, right on cue and (guess what) got a reward.  In this case a tennis ball which the handler got from his collar (?).  [eta: presumably because the dog is trained to react to any movement lower than that in case some guy reaches into his jacket for a gun or what have you ?]

Unfortunately this stopped being a thread about what marker training can/can't achieve and turned into a thread about how to train a dog to "bite" and "out"...... If a clicker was paired with a negative reinforcer to teach avoidance bhvrs it would just become an NRM wouldn't it?  Or is an NRM subtly diff to a conditioned reinforcer (-ve)?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
"I mark or click (i say mark or click becuae I do not use a clicker, i use a marker word."

So, if that is the case, then clicker training works, because clicker training IS marker training.  The only difference being that some people choose to use the click, rather than the voice, because the sound is more consistent.  It seems you are arguing against yourself. [8|]

what shuts down the discussion, is granting A-Dog the attention that he seeks.  Be it negative or otherwise. 

Everyone replies to his arguementive posts, he then is allowed the opportunity  to rant and rave and tell everyone how little they know, and that he knows so much more than they do.

+R at it's finest.

I have watched this guy in action for the last month or so...he is not about dog training.  He is about arguing, insulting, and demeaning people.

Keep feeding the beast and the beast will live.

This is not directed to your personally,(cause I love Scout in Canada) but to the forum in general.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Awsomedog, for the sake of this forum please stop trying to "chase off" any members who might actually have a lot of dog training experience and expertise. I can see it gets under your skin when someone comes on here, explains their background, and then clearly describes what training method they use complete with video clips and a thorough explanation. We all appreciate these detailed, insightful posts, especially many of us who are not involved in bite work or scenting. Instead of grasping at straws to pick apart this member's posts, questioning their qualifications (and yours would be....?), why not just enjoy the interesting description they gave. Those types of posts actually facilitate interesting discussion. Trying to "catch" people with some inconsistency in order to discredit them (eg. see your last post) just shuts everything down.

Completely OT and once again giving said member attention..... If someones bothering you, ticket and block please and let the discussion continue productively.... please?  Anyone?

ORIGINAL: houndlove

They have to be shown that the reward for "ending" the game is the continuation of the game--the ball becomes a rapidly fleeing object again.

Lightbulb shining bright.  Thanks houndlove.  Interesting discussion.
My dogs went nuts from the sounds of the video.