The Limits of Clicker Training

This is what I would do. During training. Every out the dog does....gets a bite. every time the dog does not out, the toy goes limp and does not move. no fun. the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward. Rewards do not make dogs be disobedient. Bad training (or not communicating the idea properly) causes disobedience.

 
This makes sense, and leads me to believe that protection/police work training is not that much different than other types of training (obedience, agility, etc) - making the dog WANT to do the behavior you are looking for.

OK, so clicker training CAN be used to do bite work,  So that is not a "limit" of CT. 
 
Avoidance behaviours anyone...?  *despair*

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I'm sure IMPO I know what does and does not work. But you all have the right to think what you wish.

In your opinion, why has Steve White been so successful in his training demos? It seems he has found a way to do bite work, scenting, and other behavior with a clicker.

I think the thing for me to do before I comment on Steve's training is to see his dogs in action and how they compare to other dogs that are trained using standerd methods. I know lots of dogs out there that have NNDDA certs, that reall aren't that good. Are the demo's on his site? I don't remeber seeing them there.

I think the site is under construction, so probably not.  You may want to email to see if there is a DVD out - not sure.
At any rate, the clicker doesn't "command" anything.  It is merely a marker (like your voice, only less subject to inflection).  All it tells the dog is "that was the behavior I wanted".  And, even if what you say is true, that the bite IS the reward, the click can still be used, since most clicker trainers will tell you that the best time to click is AS the behavior is happening.  In principle, the millisecond the dog puts the jaws on the sleeve...Click/Bite.  The reward doesn't always have to be something the dog has to come back to the handler for. 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

OK, so clicker training CAN be used to do bite work,  So that is not a "limit" of CT. 

Avoidance behaviours anyone...?  *despair*

 
Dumb question, but what is meant by "avoidance" behaviors?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

OK, so clicker training CAN be used to do bite work,  So that is not a "limit" of CT. 

Avoidance behaviours anyone...?  *despair*

Dumb question, but what is meant by "avoidance" behaviors?

 
A previous poster mentioned that perhaps the only thing that can't be trained with a clicker are avoidance behaviors. But I don't know what they are. We are hoping to find out. 

I just may try some clicker training with Dess on ducks since he is less "drivey" on them,,,, I want a command to put my dog on the fence (tervs are not natually wide moving dogs) I am thinking of trying it in that situation.

This is exactly where I've used it, in situations where you want to use a mechanical "starter" to get the dog doing what you want, so the dog knows it's "ok". I had a dog that was terrified of lying down when the sheep were in the corner thanks to some abusive training and the clicker worked like a charm in that situation.

Ben went for years with this weird thing where he didn't want to walk straight into the stock. In other words, he was a Border Collie with less eye than my Finnish spitz. I think it is related to his CEA, I don't know. Anyway, I worked with him on ducks when I was in a wheelchair - I'd just click when the ducks were all gathered and coming in a straight line. Trust me, you can't do that on ducks without eye, so it worked very nicely.

I was so encouraged by these successes that I really explored it seriously for a year or so, but the conclusion I've come to is that there's a very limited application here. Troubleshooting, but not laying the foundations on a well-bred and properly motivated dog.

With that said, I do use some of the aversive free techniques on the goosedogs. The dogs work poultry that are safely behind protective wire and mechanical control is put on them. However, I do this knowing that these dogs could then NEVER safely work unprotected poultry as this increases drive. The birds they will subsequently work will have multiple advantages and be protected by the control that is on the dog and the knowlege of the handlers who are wildlife experts with advanced degrees.

So I wouldn't dare use these techniques to try to train dogs that are already jacked up by the mere sight of sheep!

I think what confuses many people about clicker-training, is that they automatically think that all trainers who choose to use this tool/method are "Positive Only" trainers.

Although every "Positive Only" trainer I have ever met online or personally uses clicker-training, there are plenty of other balanced method trainers who use it, that also use all four quadrants of operant conditioning (to varying degrees based on personal choice) depending on what they are trying to achieve with a particular dog at a particular moment.

Because someone has found it to be useful during a part of the training process, this does not mean that it is used in every aspect of working with or training a dog, by every trainer that has found it to have value. 

I've seen where unishments were once used (Koehler style) to teach a dog a skill or specific behavior, many trainers are incorporating positive reinforcement in general (clicker or voice marker optional) to teach.

Some erforming animals and circus animals also used to be trained through more aversive methods, before things began to change for the better through the use of clicker (marker) training, and the use of positive reinforcement based methods.

I think it is a mistake to assume that just because someone uses this tool, they are a "Positive Only" trainer.

"Positive Only" is philosophy which people are free to personally choose for themselves. Clicker-training is a tool/method based on the positive reinforcement quadrant. There are still three other quadrants to choose and use in addition to positive reinforcement, again, depending upon what you are trying to achieve with a particular dog at a particular moment...and personal choice. []

I think generally avoidance behaviours refer to behaviours that effectively decrease/remove aversive stimuli. That is, behaviours that avoid (bad) stuff. []
 
Perhaps someone else can confirm/correct this?
 

exactly. but i am going to retort. You can train aviodance behaviors. you could pair the clicker with something aversive. like a shock collar. Then click when the dog gets next to something you did not want them by. like the trash.

I think the limits of clicker are emtional. this is a problem with clicker training barking for schutzhund. the dogs bark, and sometimes you can tell the bark is happy, or excited. it's not very convincing. You could not clicker train the dog to be barking "for real".

I think that behaviorism. working for rewards and to avoid aversives, solely is not good enough. Clicker trainning is awsome for marking behaviors and. But what about behaviors that are emotionally motivated? Your not going to clicker train a possesive dog to not be possesive. You have to manuver out behaviorsism and start thinking of emotional rehab. Also I do discredit all forms of social based behaviors. I think sometimes dogs are doing things because socially they will gain something. But again I think these dogs are few, and most dogs are not rank orientated to the point koehler may have said they were.

ORIGINAL: the_gunny
 The dog has learned that the out is the end of the behavior, the end f the reward.

There's has to be an end at some point, why would a reward after the bite be a better way to end, than the bite itself.

Because I am a dog trainer.

So your a K-9 instructor in the military, that teaches bite, and scent work? And you've been at it how long?

I would try to outsmart an animal with a brain half my size.

Outsmart the dog to do what? I teach dogs to do their job.

This is what I would do. During training. Every out the dog does....gets a bite. every time the dog does not out, the toy goes limp and does not move. no fun.

So all a suspect has to do to get your dog off is go limp? that's a good way to get a officer and his or her dog injured, shot, or killed.

the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward.

The best reward is the out??? Wow! Then why should the dog hang on to begin with? Is that how you teach where your stationed?

Rewards do not make dogs be disobedient. Bad training (or not communicating the idea properly) causes disobedience.

I never said it did. But rewarding wrong can certainly ruin a good dog.

So all a suspect has to do to get your dog off is go limp? that's a good way to get a officer and his or her dog injured, shot, or killed.

 
The toy is a reward, not a "dummy suspect".

But rewarding wrong can certainly ruin a good dog.

 
Handlers who know what they are doing and understand the basics of dog learning and behavior will not reward incorrectly, they will reward in a way that reinforces the desired behavior.
 
Handlers who don't know what they are doing may reward with the wrong timing, and the end result may be a dog that offers the wrong behavior or is at least a little confused. This is far more acceptable than handlers who use aversive methods incorrectly and hurt the dog or sour it's perception of humans in general - possible leading to fear based aggression.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

So all a suspect has to do to get your dog off is go limp? that's a good way to get a officer and his or her dog injured, shot, or killed.

The toy is a reward, not a "dummy suspect".

I've never seen a "toy" used as reward for bite work.**Content Removed**

I am do not work for any goverment agency as a dog trainer. I train dogs, thier for I am. You can pick apart my qualifications to make posts like this. But before you do...Go pick up a copy of "how dogs learn" By Buash and Baily. By the way great book to anyone looking to read up on the science of learning.

As for the game has to end. Yes it does. But not with an out command. Get it! if you constantly make the dog out at the end of the game. They will stop outing, especially high drive dogs. so you what i do is pick thier front legs of the ground by cradling them. or I trade them for a treat back at the car or the kennel. But inever command them to out and then take thier toy.

as for teaching the out. And going limp, Do you know what proofing is. IF you do I am sure you could figure out that you have to proof the out. The going limp part, is part of the teaching phase. This is how get them to let go without conflict. As puppies


you thought I meant outing was the best reward in your next argument. read my post again, then again. then again. And then you will be able to comprehend that the rewrd is not the out but the bite.

"the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward."

To be a little more precise. I am playing tug with the dog, i ask the dog to out. The dog complies....REWARD IMMEDIATLY  WITH A BITE!!!!


And your last statement has me either believeing your the worst trainer ever...or really do not know what your talking about.


But rewarding wrong can certainly ruin a good dog.


Then after your done reading how dogs learn... I suggest you go get Obedience with out conflict, and the game thier DVDs by Ivan Balbalov. I am sure you know who he is. 3 time world champion. Best protection dog trainer in America right now. Undisputed. The best. Watch those videos See what he does with rewards and games.

What I see is heavy handed beating the crap out of a dog to behave. Then they expect it to be a brave. By the way here is some of my work....

We are not working outs here so forgive the dirty biting. We are working on anaroebic grip strength

Dre
[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Dralion/2-5-07%20Grip%20work.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Dralion/2-5-07%20Grip%20work.wmv[/link]

Ann  5 weeks prego...awsome dog I know you want a puppy from her[8D]

[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Ann/Grip%20work%205%20weeks%20preggo%202-5-07.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Ann/Grip%20work%205%20weeks%20preggo%202-5-07.wmv[/link]

Darka, first time on a leg....and the craziest female malinois i have seen.

[linkhttp://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Darka/Grip%20work%202-5-07.wmv]http://ebackpack.guhsd.net/dct990/Sites/Videos/Darka/Grip%20work%202-5-07.wmv[/link]

The man wearing the suit is Danny, all but dre are his dogs.

The other guy that's me. I am generally the decoy. But Danny is more skilled than I, So he took this one.
 
You can see hoe the dogs are biting for. This is not about fighting or anytihng else but exercising the jaw....Dre...came in 3rd at AWMA nationals. this year.

I've never seen a "toy" used as reward for bite work.

 
what do you think a sleeve is???
 
these are all toys
 
[linkhttp://www.rayallen.com/ramCart/cartFrame.htm]http://www.rayallen.com/ramCart/cartFrame.htm[/link]
 
more toys
 
[linkhttp://www.rayallen.com/ramCart/cartFrame.htm]http://www.rayallen.com/ramCart/cartFrame.htm[/link]
 
 
and even more toys.
 
[linkhttp://www.mccoyk9.com/tugsjute.html]http://www.mccoyk9.com/tugsjute.html[/link]
 
 
So you think the dog distguishes biting that, and biting a suit, or a tug. It's not hard to go from a toy to a live bite.
 
But you have never seen a toy used to teach bite work....what do you use, real flesh.