The Limits of Clicker Training

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I also have no direct experience with bite work, but I don't see why you couldn't use a clicker. Basically "bite work" is an elaborate tug game, right?

If your training a dog for movies or schutzhund work you could say that. But it's the not quite the same for patrol dogs.

the dog is taught to seize and hold the decoy and release on command.

Ever watch real patrol dogs on a bite, most don't just let go on the first command. Why, because the bite is the ultimate reward. Patrol dogs are not given any reward for the release other than *good*. No officer wants his dog to want to release a suspect becuase something better might be coming. Also patrol dogs when trained right will ignore a bite sleeve or suit if it's just laying on the ground or thrown and go after the suspect, where others trained in bite work will almost always go for the sleeve or suit. So other than just for fun bite work, why anyone would want their dog to have in it's mind *when I break this hold I have a better reward waiting on me than the bite*, is beyond me.

 

Well, I use a clicker to teach dogs to play tug-- to seize and hold the toy, and release on command.

I do the same thing only I don't need a clicker, I just use what comes natural to the dog.

Once the dog understands the "release" command, you don't need your clicker anymore. So I don't see why you couldn't train your future bite dog to release the jute sleeve instantly on command with a clicker, and then as per normal training protocol just gradually proof the behavior until the dog is releasing instantly even when fighting a real person.  If the dog isn't releasing under these circumstances I'd say you went too fast and skipped some proofing steps.

The dog understands the release command without a clicker. And as spiritdog corrected my misstatemnt ealier, the clicker is used to command the release, the command *out* is given, the moment dog releases, you click, then reward.  Again, which is why it shouldn't be done with patrol dogs, because the  bite is the reward. And no, the dog not istantly breaking the hold does not mean you moved them to fast. Those who work patrol dogs know this.

The dog understands the release command without a clicker. And as spiritdog corrected my misstatemnt ealier, the clicker is used to command the release, the command *out* is given, the moment dog releases, you click, then reward. Again, which is why it shouldn't be done with patrol dogs, because the bite is the reward. And no, the dog not istantly breaking the hold does not mean you moved them to fast. Those who work patrol dogs know this

 
 
That makes a ton of sense to me.[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Yep, Steve White does use a clicker, and I have him on tape saying that he does. []
He also admits that it has been particularly hard for him to break down the macho kind of resistance to using them.

So while a *couple* of people have trained some dogs to do bite and scent work (which doesn't by the way tell just how good the dogs are at it, even with NNDDA titles) the majority of trainers in that field of work won't train *using this better than any training on the planet method* because their...macho??? Do you realize how that sounds?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I'm sure IMPO I know what does and does not work. But you all have the right to think what you wish.

In your opinion, why has Steve White been so successful in his training demos? It seems he has found a way to do bite work, scenting, and other behavior with a clicker.

I think the thing for me to do before I comment on Steve's training is to see his dogs in action and how they compare to other dogs that are trained using standerd methods. I know lots of dogs out there that have NNDDA certs, that reall aren't that good. Are the demo's on his site? I don't remeber seeing them there.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
 It just seems to me that the person with the "IMPO" is afraid to try something new. 

And that shows that you know nothing about me.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Yep, Steve White does use a clicker, and I have him on tape saying that he does. []
He also admits that it has been particularly hard for him to break down the macho kind of resistance to using them.

So while a *couple* of people have trained some dogs to do bite and scent work (which doesn't by the way tell just how good the dogs are at it, even with NNDDA titles) the majority of trainers in that field of work won't train *using this better than any training on the planet method* because their...macho??? Do you realize how that sounds?

 
This is a new kind of training in that field and is as yet not very wide spread, so the fact that as yet the trainers who use it are in the minority is not indicative of its level of efficacy.  Looking at the big picture and seeing a pattern in the training world in general, there is a general movement away from compulsion techniques and towards positive methods and conditioned reinforcers.  So I would be willing to bet that in five or ten years this will be much more common practise within the fields of protection and bite work.  Again, this is not indicative of its efficacy, just an observation and a speculation.  Perhaps this debate would be better going on then when there is more material to be observed from what is currently the minority.
 
And as for using this better than any training on the planet method - Umm, take a look at the title of the section.  This method is what we are here to discuss, so of course the people in here are likely to see great value in it.  I can't be having with this kind of rudeness and sarcasm I am afraid - for a little while there I actually thought civil discussion was possible but it seems a leopard does not change his shorts.  *Block*

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Excuse me, but let's not let this thread deteriorate into bickering and baiting.

Ok.

Awsomedog I see where you are coming from with the bite work (the most rewarding activity for the dog being the bite and therefore there is nothing effective with which to follow up a marker such as a click).  However, could you concede that that is not the only way to train a dog in this field?

Yes, I would say there's more than one way to train in this field.

It seems rather silly to say categorically "This will not work" if it is true that people within that field have had success with it.  The way you select and train dogs - no it won't.  But the way someone else has selected and trained dogs, yes it has.  I remember you saying on another thread that you didn't like someone else's posts because they always said/implied "thieir way was the only way"  You may have fallen into that trap yourself there.

Not really, because I'm saying there is certain level of reliability that a dog must have, and every year, year after year, we would see dogs from other agencies that just barely made it though certifications. Dog I certainly wouldn't rely on. So will there's certainly different methods you can use, fifteen years of seeing what works best, well, what do you want me to say here? And before anyone says I'm saying *my* method is best, I'm not. It was my mentor who showed me a better way. One that was so natural to dogs, they learned quicker than i'd ever seen.

You are entitled to your opinion I am sure, but there is a difference between opinion (even a professional one) and fact - and if its a fact that someone else has had success with it then that supersedes opinion (even a PO) in my view.  However it would be nice to see links, books, material, video links etc of this kind of thing being taught with clicker training, to see for myself just how it works and how well it seems to work.  Mind you, I imagine that is not easy to get hold of or you'd have idiots all over the place trying it!

Your right these are my only opinions based on what I personally saw for fifteen years. And my take on a dog that's been trained using a clicker or similar method may not be as sufficient as dogs trained using standerd methods. No your right, actually if their for real, to get videos for teaching police or military dogs, you must provide something in writing with your agencies letter head on it.

Finally, I disagree pretty strongly about the scentwork.  The police officer I spoke to who trained and used his GSD in scent detection paired the dogs favourite toy with the scent he wanted the dog to find so that in essence, the dog thinks that by looking for this distinctive scent he will find his toy  and in a way he is right because when he has signalled that he has "found" it, he always gets a game with the toy afterward.

No, your right here so allow me to clarify my earlier statement. When I say the sent is the reward, in the teaching phase I'll use like a pouch that contains the order, we play tug, I throw it in tall glass, I throw it in different places in different buildings, then I start hiding it, and then I teach the dog to alert to it. Now, when the dog is sniffing and sits because he/she has found the odor, (in the begining) I will walk over to where the dog is and flip the toy out to them. I will let them shake it around, but *I* do not tug.  And here's why, once the dogs alert is proofed, when the dog sits on the odor, instead of opening and flipping anything out, I take the toy from my pocket and toss it to the dog. Now! here's why no tug.  When the dog brings me the toy, I ask them to release it, and then tell the dog to go back and show me where it's at (except for bomb dogs, for obvious reasons), so it's the game of hunting and finding the odor, that's even more import and fun for the dog, than the toy itself.

well for that you have your opinion and others have theirs..... and neither is going to change I think.

Your right, the only time I've seen it change is when trainings would see our methods first hand. So...all that being said, I don't really care what method anyone uses, you like, you use it. Anyone who want's to believe I'm wrong, it's all good.[]

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

 There is nothing worse than somebody with experience in a field who flat-out refuses to realize that as times change, we learn new things, and new ways of doing things (darn those outdated vets...haha).

Who says times have changed? You? And you would know that times have changed in that field because...you have experience and knowledge of how things work in that field, or your just wildly guessing?

 

gunny1

I devel pretty highly into protection work and scent work.

What exactly does that mean?

where does clicker training come into this. if my dog is tracking a human and comes along an article, the dog indicates by sitting. how does the dog know found something. that the tracking produced. by giving a click or a marker then rewarding. or finding the box with the bomb in it? same thing.

How does the dog know? Easy, as soon as the dog sits I toss his/her reward to them without ever saying a word or clicking. And it sounds alot to be like your very bitter about the Military and Law enforcement.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
 I can't be having with this kind of rudeness and sarcasm I am afraid - for a little while there I actually thought civil discussion was possible but it seems a leopard does not change his shorts.  *Block*

What??? Excuse me but spiritdogs comment on someone saying the reason most trainers in the field don't use clicker training "is because their macho" isn't rude? Dude, your right again, there is no discussion to have. Enjoy clicking, I'm outta this thread. so let the party begin.[]

although I know Lana Mitchell is doing some clicker training of herding behaviors, I have not been able to determine a method to apply clicker training to herding... I have enough trouble managing a stock stick, line and my own feet,,,,not to mention the sheep who are in constant motion. Dont see how to add a clicker to that mix at the moment.

I heard a lot about Mitchell, and that she's doing clinics, and so I was excited when I got to see some video and a good many pics from her clinics. I was SO disappointed - really only the mechanics are taught with the clicker, mostly "Dry" work, and then I saw lots of pics of her and her students chasing the dog around and pushing it off with a garden rake. A BIG one! [sm=eek.gif] She claimed "it wasn't really aversive." I'd be pretty miffed if I took a clinic expecting no aversives and my dog got physically pushed off the sheep with a garden rake.

I'd love to train on stock with no aversives but I just don't see how it can be done. Extinction csn't happen otherwise because of the high reinforcement value of such fun things as taking a prey animal down and getting a taste of blood. Roast beef be damned. What you can do is make sure you are correcting things in such a controlled environment, and doing it so early, that corrections can be short, sweet, and low on the scale of aversiveness.

I too am interested in hearing more about avoidance.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
Enjoy clicking,

We will, thanks! []

I have heard that comment from others as well.  Some have mentioned that lower drive dogs seem to do better with the methods than high drive dogs...  Access to sheep is so reinforcing and timing so critical,  I find clicker training a difficult match for herding behaviors.
 
I just may try some clicker training with Dess on ducks since he is less "drivey" on them,,,, I want a command to put my dog on the fence (tervs are not natually wide moving dogs)  I am thinking of trying it in that situation.

So will there's certainly different methods you can use, fifteen years of seeing what works best, well, what do you want me to say here?

 
Well, you've only seen what works best from the "past" 15 years of experience. How's bout we come back here in another 15 years and see what might "work best" then? [] Because heaven knows that times DO change....you can look at just about every and any political/ethical practice that exists to know that. Maybe we can better exchange ideas then eh?
 
 

Who says times have changed? You? And you would know that times have changed in that field because...you have experience and knowledge of how things work in that field, or your just wildly guessing?

Well, I suppose, yes, I am saying that. But not just me.....hundreds of others are saying that same thing. And they aren't just saying it, they are PROVING it. [] You don't have to be an "expert" in a field to be able to gain access to the evolution of the field of bitework or scenting. That's what records are for. That's what literature is for. Nope, I have no experience in doing bite work, you're right. And I don't plan on it anytime soon. But it doesn't make me a total imbecile either.
 
The proof lies in the people that are out there DOING all these things you claim that "they can't do with a clicker". And that's all that matters, is that they are doing it, therefore your logic doesn't hold up. Plain and simple. And, by golly, those dogs are reliable!
 
Happy training! (Click!)
 
Kim

How does the dog know? Easy, as soon as the dog sits I toss his/her reward to them without ever saying a word or clicking. And it sounds alot to be like your very bitter about the Military and Law enforcement.

Bitter? That's why Extended my Enlistment in the military for another 4 years. getting promoted march 4th. If your ever down in San diego, I can get you a tour aound the helicopters I work on, I am not bitter, But the military and police K-9 programs are pretty shabby. It's bad when they( military and police k-9 handlers) oh and ah at your 16 mos. old malinois like shes a world champion.

And yes one could throw a toy without marking. But why not mark. Training is in fact communication. Training is communicating an idea to a dog in the most crystal clear fashion. IMO clicking when the dog sits. is just reiterating to the dog that was the correct behavior.

And the patrols dogs that do not out? do it because they are not trained very well. I can place RAW chicken in front of my dogs and leave the room. they won't touch it. my neigbors dog would. would you say that the chicken is just to much reward. The patrol dogs I see not outing, Do so because compulsion has been used in the past to get the dog to stop biting. The dog has learned that the out is the end of the behavior, the end f the reward. That's basically what you said right. Because I am a dog trainer. I would try to outsmart an animal with a brain half my size.

This is what I would do. During training. Every out the dog does....gets a bite. every time the dog does not out, the toy goes limp and does not move. no fun. the minute the dog lets go again....the toy comes back alive.....outing, produces reward...and the best reward. Rewards do not make dogs be disobedient. Bad training (or not communicating the idea properly) causes disobedience.