The Limits of Clicker Training

Chuffy and JM are right. At this point one poster has trained a whole lot of other folks to reward his bullying behavior by engaging with it. If everyone keeps letting it happen by reinforcing the behavior, then this forum is going to continue to be less and less interesting and more and more about one stupid argument that happens over and over again.

The block feature is a wonderful thing.

I think the ball in the collar is to reinforce the dog to look at the handler.
 
As for pairing the an aversice with the clicker. NRM= no reward marker? I do not think so. a no reward marker is different.  A no reward marker is negaitive punishment. the removal/or loss of a chance something good. a condtioned aversive to a click is negative reiforcement. The dog is working to avoid the click.
 
 
someone asked earlier if they could create drive with the clicker. I think you can with negative reiforcement....And I think you can do it without using violence, or doing anything unethical.
 
I do it with a pinch collar. when the dog is young the collar is a neutral stimulus. if it has never been used. it has no meaning. A fresh canvas. I put the collar on the dog every time we go play. play lasts only three minutes or less. and is as crazy as the dog can handle. The dog after play immediatly goes in the crate...lured with a treat of course. I do not want to cause any conflict. I want that collar to mean crazy,happy,fun. as the dog gets older about 5-6 months. As gently as i can during play. especailly when we are playing tug like crazy, I make gentle taps on the collar. the dog shoudl react no way except keep on playing.. play is still 3 minutes or less at a time. so the dog comes out crazy and goes away crazy. the play is never tiring or boring. the tugs on the collar should me crazy, crazy, crazy. Now this is the foundation of bite training for me. But this could be aplied to other training. When the dog is older 7-months to a year.  I start Obedience. I wait this long becaue of the collar. to young and the dog will get a bad assocaition with it. they are to young to handle that kind of pressure. But at 7-12 mos. The dog should react to the pop on the collar with crazyness. I start now with the collar and teaching the dog to follow the leash pressure. with the dog in front of me. I pop,pop,pop,pop. The dog may fight it. I do not worry, i just keep pooping. the minute the dog takes a step toward me. Click!!! the dog gets a game. I might even pop while the dog is on the tug still. So this is technicallynegative reiforcement. the dog is working to avoid the pops. But creates Drive. How>? Well check it out. Did yo ever have someone try to gain your attention and touch you gently, maybe jump a little (drive?) and you respond. technically that's negative reiforcement. was it painful? was it unethical? no! There is a world champion named Bart Bellon who has done this an E-collar. My dog is a little to sensitive i believe for Electricty to ever be a neutral stimulus so it is not possible for me. But I think you get the jist of what I am saying. I do the pinch with my dog. her ears stay up. her tail wagging. She gets more animated with pops sometimes will get so excited she starts barking.
 
So what does everyone think.
 
Oh...I have the block option enabled.

Just to clarify, the click does not elicit behavior, the click ends behavior (and tells the dog that the behavior he was exhibiting in that nanosecond is the one he is being rewarded for

That's my understanding of it. As I meant to say in my previous post, they were merely doubts of mine but the value is in marking the completed behavior. And, as time goes by, the click is phased out. And, as I tried to hypothesize earlier, field work or even long range retrieval starts out close in and then, I would imagine, the recall sound you plan to use is linked with the behavior and when completed, click and treat. The trick, then, is to have a sound that can be heard for at least 100 yards, or so, such as a shepherd's whistle.

There may be a limitation in certain dogs who, for whatever reason, don't connect the click with the treat. But I can admit that any mammal is possibly capable of operant conditioning.

So, theoretically, there may be no limit to a clicker, since it is primarily a marker, though it can lead to operant conditioning. Then, it's only limit is how well the click is heard.

Well check it out. Did yo ever have someone try to gain your attention and touch you gently, maybe jump a little (drive?) and you respond. technically that's negative reiforcement. was it painful? was it unethical? no! There is a world champion named Bart Bellon who has done this an E-collar. My dog is a little to sensitive i believe for Electricty to ever be a neutral stimulus so it is not possible for me. But I think you get the jist of what I am saying. I do the pinch with my dog. her ears stay up. her tail wagging. She gets more animated with pops sometimes will get so excited she starts barking.

So what does everyone think.

 
This is a hard concept for me to wrap my head around but I think I'm getting it. The pinch collar has been thoroughly associated with drive, play, fun. So then, you eventually use it with the collar pops to get the dog revved up and excited? That's what I'm interpreting. The key here I suppose is that the leash pops are not painful... so this would be no different than if you associated, say, a whistle blow with intense play and fun, and then using the whistle blow later in training to rev the dog up? Or is there extra intensity brought on by the physical means versus a sound?

Chuffy and JM are right. At this point one poster has trained a whole lot of other folks to reward his bullying behavior by engaging with it. If everyone keeps letting it happen by reinforcing the behavior, then this forum is going to continue to be less and less interesting and more and more about one stupid argument that happens over and over again.

The block feature is a wonderful thing.

 
 
Agreed, I have used it (the block) for some time now and it#%92s wonderful. [] Did you notice how the CM thread died?[]  It became un-interesting just as you mentioned.[:@]  Now that the beast moved here, just don't feed it.[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]
 

ORIGINAL: JM

what shuts down the discussion, is granting A-Dog the attention that he seeks.  Be it negative or otherwise.

LOL I know you don't like that I don't agree with you, but please, can we get real here for a moment. I'm come on here and state my opinion and ask questions the same as you (only without the whining). This post is nothing more than you insulting me because you don't like what I have to say, that's how life is.

Everyone replies to his arguementive posts, he then is allowed the opportunity  to rant and rave and tell everyone how little they know, and that he knows so much more than they do.

"Rant and rave"[sm=rotfl.gif]

I have watched this guy in action for the last month or so...he is not about dog training.  He is about arguing, insulting, and demeaning people.

Then you've seen just what you want to see (no surprise), because even in this thread *I* haven't insulted gunny, but he sure strait out insulted me. But here you are with *your* agenda. But I'm the evil one.[sm=evilfire.gif]

Keep feeding the beast and the beast will live.

Wow...that was clever.[] I would laugh really hard here but apparently, that upsets some of you. Oh what the heck. Bahahahahaha

Pinch collars and E-collars on a clicker thread. Now I've heard it all, talk about +R training. What's that line in spiritdogs sig? Oh well, I came here, I saw what I knew I'd see, so "the beast" is leaving and heading back into the light. You people have a great time here? [sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

Chuffy and JM are right. At this point one poster has trained a whole lot of other folks to reward his bullying behavior by engaging with it. If everyone keeps letting it happen by reinforcing the behavior, then this forum is going to continue to be less and less interesting and more and more about one stupid argument that happens over and over again.

The block feature is a wonderful thing.

 
 
Agreed, I have used it (the block) for some time now and it's wonderful. [] Did you notice how the CM thread died?[]  It became un-interesting just as you mentioned.[:@]  Now that the beast moved here, just don't feed it.[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

Yeah...lol...like you have room to talk.

Scout to my north. I always get nervous posting that stuff. people really have a hard time with it. I think the human association of the collar traditionally calling discomfort and that technically the training is -R. People either do not get it, say it will not work, or they accuse me of being a tree hugger trying to fool myself. But I swear it works. You know you use the whistle as another example, but what about getting a little more rough. as babies I teach my dogs that pulling and rough housing is affection...this you really have to be able to read the dog so you do not go to hard. Another thing I do is condition the stick. The stick creates drive. when I am playing IPO (schutzhund). If you have not seen a lot of Sch. You notice some dogs get weaker around the stick...You can teach the dog not only not to be afraid but actually to get jazzed by getting hit by the stick (it's soft and flexible). Have you seen held a dog back from something it wanted then gave it a small swat in the butt to create more drive when releasing them. Same princpal.

Now how can you apply this. When I give my dog a command. I pair with it a pop. especially on things like left turns in obedience. i pop before I want the turn. Then take the turn. I notice this make dogs much precise in the turns and it makes them turn fast.

the other problem with the training is nobody wants to wait that long to do the foundation work.


and my training is not purley +r. I have not found a way to purley +r and get the type of OB I need to compete. But on that same note I do not think that -R needs to be disrespectful to the dog, painful or violent. Have you ever been reprimanded and left thinking, They were right, they got the point across without being brutual or disrespectful. They were fair. And even had more respect for that person.

ORIGINAL: gunny1

Scout to my north. I always get nervous posting that stuff. people really have a hard time with it. I think the human association of the collar traditionally calling discomfort and that technically the training is -R. People either do not get it, say it will not work, or they accuse me of being a tree hugger trying to fool myself. But I swear it works. You know you use the whistle as another example, but what about getting a little more rough. as babies I teach my dogs that pulling and rough housing is affection...this you really have to be able to read the dog so you do not go to hard. Another thing I do is condition the stick. The stick creates drive. when I am playing IPO (schutzhund). If you have not seen a lot of Sch. You notice some dogs get weaker around the stick...You can teach the dog not only not to be afraid but actually to get jazzed by getting hit by the stick (it's soft and flexible). Have you seen held a dog back from something it wanted then gave it a small swat in the butt to create more drive when releasing them. Same princpal.

Now how can you apply this. When I give my dog a command. I pair with it a pop. especially on things like left turns in obedience. i pop before I want the turn. Then take the turn. I notice this make dogs much precise in the turns and it makes them turn fast.

the other problem with the training is nobody wants to wait that long to do the foundation work.

"Force, no matter how concealed, produces resistance."[]

We are different people thier A-dog. And you do understand that you can use +R, -R, +P and -P all together.

ORIGINAL: gunny1

We are different people thier A-dog. And you do understand that you can use +R, -R, +P and -P all together.

Yep, I'm just intested now in what that *clicker* crowd thinks about that. This should really be interesting.

I do not understand, I do not use a clicker. But I use the word okay, in place of the clicker. The clicker and the word mean the same thing to the dog. So the Ideaology behind the training is same. I consider myself...part of the clicker crowd.

ORIGINAL: gunny1

I do not understand, I do not use a clicker. But I use the word okay, in place of the clicker. The clicker and the word mean the same thing to the dog. So the Ideaology behind the training is same. I consider myself...part of the clicker crowd.

Ok...maybe I worded it wrong, but according to some here, the idea of +R training is, reward good behavior, and ignore (not correct) bad behavior. That way, only rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad behavior, gives you a dog that was trained using no punishment. And certainly not pinch and choke collars ( and say the dogs are ok with it). LOL Some people here HATE CM's methods, and your talking about pinch and shock collars. Hey...lol, I'm just hanging out to see how it all works out.

A-dog, If we can a civil conversation here. I will explain. First when a dog first wears a pinch collar, or an E- collar would you agree that collar means nothing positive, nor anything negative? This is called a neutral stimulus. From here on out the way the dog views that collar is up to how it is used. Now traditionally the collars have been used to cause pain, or discomfort. So when you hear the words the pinch or E-collar. You immediatly believe the collars are used to cause pain or discomfort. What i do I assure you causes the dog no discomfort nor pain. Even the E-collar, I use an innotek on level one only. with special porongs that even further reduce the stimulus of the electrical. the Stim is so mild I guarntee you would not be able to tell me when the collar was being activated and when it is not., if it were to be place on your own skin.
 
The process of teaching the dogs exactly what the collars, training means is teaching them what the communication means. It goes beyond the basics of avoid the aversives and work for the good. I have found it to be much more detailed and in depth.
 
We working with animals that does not have verbal detailed vocabulary. I am trying to brindge the commnication gap. The click or mark teaches the dog, at that precise moment you are correct here is a reward. reiforcing the behavior. And would you agree any behavior that is reiforced is likely to occur again. The gentle pop on the pinch tells the dog that is wrong, or you need to do something else. I even teach my dogs that pops from above mean to look at me, pops to the side mean heel, pops downward me lay down.pops forward means move up or come here. I assure you the dogs do not show no aversion, pain, discomfort, or stress.
 
As for R+, You can use R+....and ignore the bad....Ignoring the bad is called -P. You remove the rewards as a punishment.
 
As for CM's methods that is a whole another forum. And lets keep this on the workings of Operant Conditioning.