Resistance is futile!!!!!

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Oh I'm sorry, did I get that right? Funny how some were all over me about not knowing what I was talking about when it came to shaping, and then when I do post some details...not a peep out of ya.

 
I think your shaping demo was fine. I don't spend all day and night on the forum, I do have a job!

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I only just read it!! 

It sounds like we are pretty much on the same page.

Ok, that's good.

Why is this procedure not workable for bite or scent work?

That! I have already stated over and over. Now I answered your question on shaping, you or anyone can answer mine. Explain to me in detail how a clicker would be used to train *real bite work* or *teaching scent work*. Start with Bite, then scent. I'm looking forward to your answers?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

 I do have a job!

Most of us do.[]

Not me.  Well I do technically but I'm not there at the moment.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I only just read it!! 

It sounds like we are pretty much on the same page.

Ok, that's good.

Why is this procedure not workable for bite or scent work?

That! I have already stated over and over. Now I answered your question on shaping, you or anyone can answer mine. Explain to me in detail how a clicker would be used to train *real bite work* or *teaching scent work*. Start with Bite, then scent. I'm looking forward to your answers?

 
I believe MRV already answered your question about scent work:
 
"There is no reason that a clicker could not be used for scent work.  You need to have good observation and timing skills because you need to mark the specific behaviors of the dog that indicate discrimination of a particular scent.  A task analysis approach that would break down the behaviors (which might include the behaviors associated with ground tracking or air scenting; casting to find the scent cone; establishing an indication of a find

In very novice dogs, the initial step of behaviors would likely be orientation (by body) to the desired scent.  One scent only.  Then working to get some people observable contact with that scent (like dropping the nose as an example).  Once that was well established.  Dog went out looked/smelled for the scent quickly and efficeintly,  add an additional scent as a distractor and start with a scent marker to match.   Just one possible scenario how one might go about establishing scent behaviors in a dog.  This behavior chain is in no way complete or exhaustive,,, just an attempt to describe how a complex set of natural behaviors could be shaped to develop scent discrimination. "

Wrong thread!  Too confusing! My bad.

I just wanted to comment on the independant dogs and different personalities with regards to marker training.  I trained both Tasha and Kota the same ways, using a choke collar and molding.  This is how I was taught to do it in a training class.  I have since converted to marker training and free-shaping since beginning agility and realizing I didn't need to force my dogs to do anything.

Kota is an independant, confident dog but also soft.  His way of "shutting down" was to sniff the ground, look away, "not listen".

Tasha is a velcro dog, sensitive and even softer.  She would lay down, put her ears back and not do anything.

Now on the marker training bit.  When I first started free-shaping with them, Kota immediately got the game and offered many behaviors.  Tasha layed down and didn't offer anything.  She would look at me waiting for a command.

Two dogs, trained the same way, different personalities, reacting differently to marker training.  It took Tasha 2-3 free-shaping sessions to have that "light bulb" moment.  It took Kota 1.  So different dogs, take different amounts of time.

For those of  you that have dogs similar to my Tasha, what I did was used a generic "go" to mean, do something.  I used "go" to encourage her to make some choices for herself.  I have been able to fade the go and she now offers behaviors on her own.  So you might try that!  []

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


I believe MRV already answered your question about scent work:

"There is no reason that a clicker could not be used for scent work.  You need to have good observation and timing skills because you need to mark the specific behaviors of the dog that indicate discrimination of a particular scent.  A task analysis approach that would break down the behaviors (which might include the behaviors associated with ground tracking or air scenting; casting to find the scent cone; establishing an indication of a find

In very novice dogs, the initial step of behaviors would likely be orientation (by body) to the desired scent.  One scent only.  Then working to get some people observable contact with that scent (like dropping the nose as an example).  Once that was well established.  Dog went out looked/smelled for the scent quickly and efficeintly,  add an additional scent as a distractor and start with a scent marker to match.   Just one possible scenario how one might go about establishing scent behaviors in a dog.  This behavior chain is in no way complete or exhaustive,,, just an attempt to describe how a complex set of natural behaviors could be shaped to develop scent discrimination. "

Oh I can't wait! to get to this one later.[]

Oh I can't wait! to get to this one later.

Well you already saw this post several days ago, but.... OK.

For those of you that have dogs similar to my Tasha, what I did was used a generic "go" to mean, do something. I used "go" to encourage her to make some choices for herself. I have been able to fade the go and she now offers behaviors on her own. So you might try that!

 
That's so interesting! A command to say - hey do whatever you want, you can't go wrong! That would probably help a lot of people with similar dogs.

It was incredibly helpful with Tasha.  Of my 4, she's the only one that needed it the most.  I've used "go" in other instances, to introduce weave poles to Kota and Pepper and I use the go the same way.  This is in precursor to switching to the actual command when they complete the whole process.  I will begin a thread in Sports for that.  []

I also know it doesn't work in certain fields of dog training, like bite or scent work. IMPO

 
Hmm, well, as far as I know, the clicker has been successfully used in EVERYTHING that other methods have been! It's been used in police work, scenting work, bite work (shutzhund AND ringsport), herding, tracking, S&R, water rescue.........
 
From the Clicker Training honor roll at www.clickertraining.com:
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/860]OTCH Tashel's Mooseleuk Stryder WC JH AGn TDX CGN AKC CDX JH[/link]
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/682]Melodane's Axel Goes Riding, CGC, RN, RA[/link]
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/859]Motch Nelson's Golden Scotsman WC JH AGn CGN TDX AKC CDX JH[/link]
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/859]http://www.clickertraining.com/node/859[/link]
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/682]Melodane's Axel Goes Riding, CGC, RN, RA[/link]
Honors/Wins:
Carting Advanced, American Bouvier des Flandres Club; NDD, Bernese Mtn Dog Club of America; AKC Rally Advanced; AKC Rally Novice; CGC; Therapy dog (Ret)(TDI, Delta Society, Happy Tails Pet Therapy)
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/711]Daisy[/link]
AX, MXJ, AAD, CPE up through levels 3 and 4, OAC, OJC, OGC, TN-N, TG-N 2006 AKC Agility Invitational invitee
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/710]Runa[/link]
Fila Brasileiro ,
Honors/Wins:
Passed the certification trial as a military working dog in the Danish National Guard (Hjemmevaernet) Saturday the 7th of October, 2006. A first for the breed.
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/709]Clue (Fitzcap's Inspector Clouseau) CD, OA, OAJ[/link]

Animal Breed: Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen
Honors/Wins:
Certified Human Remains Detection Dog, Land and Water, with National Narcotics Detection Dog Association - Police Association - Cadaver Division
One of 5 PBGVs with WISARK9, searching for missing people.
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/707]Jack (Isit Jumpin Jackomo, CGC)[/link]

Animal Breed: Italian Greyhound
Honors/Wins:
Working mobility service dog.
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/698]AKC Ch U-CD U-AgII Taylor, VCD1, OA, OAJ, OAP, AJP, RE[/link]

Animal Breed: Beagle
Honors/Wins:
Taylor is the 2nd AKC conf/obed/agility/tracking/agility titled Beagle. She has 2 legs on her CDX & is over halfway to her UKC Agility Championship. Another "model Beagle"
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/697]AKC CH U-CDX U-AGII Rio, VCD2, OA, OAJ, NAP, NJP, RE[/link]


Animal Breed: Beagle
Honors/Wins:
Rio is one of 2 AKC conf/obed/tracking/agility & rally titled Beagles. She will be 13 Nov 2006 & is totally [linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/glossary#term205]clicker[/link] trained. Still working happily, we are going for her last UD leg this fall, as well as her TDX and possibly finishing her UKC Agility Championship.
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/690]River Ranch Heart of Fire[/link]

Animal Breed: Golden Retriever
Honors/Wins:
AX OAJ RE CGC PS-1 NAC NGC TN-N NJC WV-N TG-N RS-N GS-N
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/686]Rika vom Kirschental, CD, TDX, CGC, TDI[/link]

Animal Breed: German Shepherd Dog
Honors/Wins:
TDX,CD,CGC,TDI,NASAR Airscent search dog,NASAR Trailing dog,Pa Police mantracker,Pa Police evidence tracking,Pa Police building search,Pa Police area search, Pa Police obedience certified
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/678]Chase[/link]


Animal Breed: Border Collie
Honors/Wins:
AKC Agility-  NA, NAJ, OA, OAJ, currently working on our AX and AXJ title
USDAA Agility-  AD, AAD, currently working on our MAD title
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/673]Feeska (Pearl's daughter)[/link]

Animal Breed: Giant Schnauzer
Honors/Wins:
Rally Novice and CD. Also Schutzhund BH & AD
 
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/656]Clue (Fitzcap's Inspector Clouseau) CD, OA, OAJ[/link]

Animal Breed: Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen
Honors/Wins:
Certified Human Remains Detection Dog, Land and Water, with National Narcotics Detection Dog Association - Police Association - Cadaver Division
One of 5 PBGVs with WISARK9,
 
Is that enough for a start? [] I could find dozens and dozens and dozens more, but I don't wish to overdo it.

Thanks for posting that Kim. It is an impressive list!

Gosh!  []

Kim,
Thanks for posting that.  I'm not a person who tends to type or cut & paste long posts, so I appreciate your taking the time to do it.  Clicker training is being tried in all disciplines and has been very successful.  The hardest thing isn't training the dogs with it, it's getting skeptical people to give it a try. []