Resistance is futile!!!!!

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


It's not an insult, I mean I only learned about shaping on this forum much like many others. It just seemed from your responses that you didn't know what it was. It's a neat training tool and a fun way to bond with your dog. Have you ever tried it?

I've been working with dogs professionally for over a couple of decades now, so how can I even take your question seriously? And I'm not in the habit of repeating myself, so don't expect me to keep answering the same question over and over. Especially one I can't even take seriously. One doesn't teach dogs to do all the things I've taught over the years without knowing what shaping is, so some common sense should be used when proposing a question. So while you being a dog owner may have recently found it, me being in the business of dog training and behavior work should, and do understand all concepts of training. I keep up with what's going on in the dog training and behavior world because I believe even I can still learn even more and no one has all the right answers. I only have a problem when someone who's never worked in one of the fields I worked in, tries to tell me how something "might" work. Actually doing something is far different than just thinking about how it could be done. If one can't see that then this is a conversation that's going know where.

Now other than that, for those of you that enjoy clicker training, good! Keep it up, if you find it fun and it works for you, chances are you dog finds it fun too. I actually think that's great. And I mean that.

Awsomedog, still no response on shaping - if you've already posted the relevant info elsewhere just post the link.  I would be genuinely interested to hear some of your specific experiences with this method, but as that would be OT I'll start a new thread for it.  This thread is really for people who don't use marker training and why not, or why "latecomers" were suspicious of it..... seems like we're going round and round in circles and getting further and further OT.
 
The thing is, very very few of us will ever work any highly dangeorus dogs, so if you would be willing to share your marker training experiences maybe we can establish common ground.  Plus, the way you word your posts does make it appear that you are misunderstanding me or misunderstanding some of the basic principals underpinning marker training and shaping - if you would share some specific experiences then I/we can determine that we are at least on the same page with the terminology - that we really are talking about the same thing and not just arguing at cross purposes.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
 I only have a problem when someone who's never worked in one of the fields I worked in, tries to tell me how something "might" work. Actually doing something is far different than just thinking about how it could be done.

I couldn't help but laugh at this, because a very competent dog trainer once told me that she learned one of the best ways to teach a dog to "shake" from a five year old child who had enough imagination to figure out how to do it without being taught.  Not exactly a professional dog trainer, not even in first grade yet LOL.  I really think that it's fine to entertain new ideas, no matter where they come from.  As in any other pursuit, take what you like or need from the suggestions, and discard the rest.

  Chuffy

OMG that's all we're doing is going round and round. You just don't like my answers. And that's a good idea you have there, so why don't *you* start a thread and explain from start to finish how *you* shaped somehting your dog does. I love to hear it. You have after all done it right?

Well, also with something like shaping, if you have a dog and you've shaped a behavior, you've done it and it is no longer just theory. You don't have to be a professional dog trainer to try shaping on some dogs and see if it works or not. You act like you're the only person here who has ever even seen a dog let alone trained one.

As a teacher I may know more about the finer points of classroom management and teaching specific skills than your average joe, but if someone who has kids has a suggestion for me, I'll listen because if you've got kids at home you've got a pretty good idea of developmental stages (at least in general if not technical terms), and forms of discipline that, in the context of one-on-one situations, work better or worse. It makes me cranky when a parent tells me how to run my entire classroom from start to finish because it is different from just having one kid at home, but its not so different that they can't give me some suggestions and pointers regarding how kids behave and think. I'm certainly not going to tell any parent that they siimply don't know anything about working with children because they don't do it professionally for money. That's just ridiculous.

And that's a good idea you have there, so why don't *you* start a thread and explain from start to finish how *you* shaped somehting your dog does. 

 
Hmmmm... are you making that suggestion so that you can learn what shaping is? [8D]

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Well, also with something like shaping, if you have a dog and you've shaped a behavior, you've done it and it is no longer just theory. You don't have to be a professional dog trainer to try shaping on some dogs and see if it works or not. You act like you're the only person here who has ever even seen a dog let alone trained one.

If your talking to me, try addressing me so there's no guessing at who your talking too. If you standing at the front of your class and addressing a certain student, you do let them know your talking to them right? And as far as "You act like you're the only person here who has ever even seen a dog let alone trained one." That's a out right lie.

It makes me cranky when a parent tells me how to run my entire classroom from start to finish because it is different from just having one kid at home

That's! The part I'm talking about here, and as a "teacher" I'd think you'd see that. But then again I'd also think you'd know how to let someone know it's them your addressing. And if your not addressing me and your addressing someone else, perhaps you sould learn to make it more clear.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

And that's a good idea you have there, so why don't *you* start a thread and explain from start to finish how *you* shaped somehting your dog does. 

Hmmmm... are you making that suggestion so that you can learn what shaping is? [8D]

Bahahahahaha Yeah that's it! I'll be back later so I can learn something. Can't wait. Bahahahahaha

If you are really planning to add to the discussion, awsomedog, could you just post the link that Chuffy asked for, and we'll be happy to go refresh our memories on your perspectives on marker training and/or shaping.  Then, maybe we'll have a frame of reference for a debate or some intelligent discourse.
I'm curious if you have tried shaping on some of the more aggressive dogs, and if it has produced any results that you found helpful.  I find that it's hard for aggressive dogs to get rewarded for much, sometimes, and these exercises can give the dogs something to do that earns them that.  Plus, the owners get to think about their dogs as "smart" not just "aggressive".  It helps remove the label that can hinder them from appreciating that their dog may actually be making some progress.  What do you think?

Awsomedog, your posts make it sound like you have never tried marker training or witnessed it first hand being done correctly - that's why we're asking for more specific accounts, to untangle whether this is a genuine instance where clicker training fails, or whether it was being done incorrectly or whether you are misunderstanding something.  Please don't take any of this as a personal affront, I can assure you (at least on my part) it's not meant to be insulting in any way.  We're all here to learn and share experiences.  Ref the shaping - take a look at the Paco vid I mentioned, it will only take a minute.  That's what I meant by shaping.  Have you used the same procedure, but with diff. equipment and/or to teach a diff skill?
 
I would be genuinely interested to learn of occasions where clicker training failed as so far I have only heard the success stories and this is directly related to the original topic.  Speaking of which: just to refresh your memories everyone, why are you resistant to the idea of "clicker training" and if you are a "latecomer" what held you back from trying it?  Or have you tried it and it didn't work?

I think you make an excellent point, JM. If the point of clicker training is to facilitate the dog training himself, then an independent dog will, by temperment, make the leap to try something new or different.
 

Chuffy

Now remember I have no clue about what shaping is, but I#%92ll take a wild guess how it#%92s done. lol Ok, so perhaps I lack details here and that's the problem. But time is the real issue here, I think? I can only put a little time in here. No I haven't watched the video yet, and maybe your being on the up and up here, we'll see. I'm really not looking for a fight here so to end this, hopefully...here's how I would use shaping.
   
Training a stand and stay using shaping.
So the process used to shape this behavior will be by using a conditioned reinforcer. I#%92ll start with table work because so many dogs have a problem with vet and grooming tables. One way I like to overcome a dog's fear of the table is to give it a job. I‘ll give him/her the job of "watch my finger."
I#%92ll take something like cut up hot dogs or bill jack treats and put them in a pouch behind my back. Then I will put the dog up on a table.

Say good, and give a treat.
I hold out my index finger, steadily, in front of the dog's nose. I#%92ll say *good* when it looks at my finger. Move my hand away and give him/her a treat. I#%92m not waving my finger and I don#%92t have food in that hand. I want the dog to listen for the *good*, not look for the treat (because that would be luring not shaping,  and I#%92m not tempting the dog with bait, hoping it will look interested; instead, I#%92m showing it that by focusing its eyes index finger, he/she will here *good*, then receive a reward.) When this is performed to me liking, I will then add, *good watch*.
After a few *goods* for looking at my finger, normally he/she will stand up. I#%92ll say *good* the instant he/she stands, then give him/her a treat. When this is performed to me liking, I will then add, *good stand*. I don't touch the dog and, I NEVER talk to him/her! IMPO baby, sweet talking, and encouragement could actually reinforce timid behavior. Instead, I hold my finger enticingly near the dog's nose and rely on my *good* to tell the dog, "That's what I like and want."

To extend the length of time the dog will stand there? Once I have the dog standing nicely, I will teach him/her that he/she should hold its pose by waiting two or three seconds until I say *good*. If the dog breaks the pose before I say *good*, that‘s cool. I simply start again. Letting the dog discover for his/her-self that he she now needs to stand still a little longer to until I say *good*. When this is performed to me liking, I will then add, *good stay*.

That's it, and if that's not what shaping is then your all right, and I'm wrong.

Zeus is very independant.  So much more than the pom.  If the pom doesn't know what to do, he goes into a default down.  He is very food motivated.

 Zeus is not food motivated but will turn flip flops if that is what it takes to get me to click.

I think it totally has to do with the personality of the dog. Zeus is cocky, confident, stubborn, competitive, self assured and all of that good stuff. He is all about getting the click.

With Zeus, it is like...Gimme gimme gimme...bouncing around doing silly stuff.  I see a behavior I want...click/treat...Zeus is like yaaay, I so won this one. Now let's do it again.

The pom is like...I'm never going to win this game so I am not even playing.  I'll just lay here and starve too death. 

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ORIGINAL: ron2

I think you make an excellent point, JM. If the point of clicker training is to facilitate the dog training himself, then an independent dog will, by temperment, make the leap to try something new or different.

Oh I'm sorry, did I get that right? Funny how some were all over me about not knowing what I was talking about when it came to shaping, and then when I do post some details...not a peep out of ya.

I only just read it!! 

It sounds like we are pretty much on the same page.  There's a couple of things I may do a bit differently, but I think that's just different styles and different preferneces coming into play.  So (meandering sloooowly back to topic....) Why is this procedure not workable for bite or scent work?