Resistance is futile!!!!!

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

This one always cracks me up, you people *think* because I'm curt when I speak, or state something in a matter of fact way, that somehow that has something to do with how I am towards dogs. Bahahahaha *Luv* even went as far as directly insulting me, saying, *I was a trainer that abused dogs*. LOL making her one of the rudest people on this forum. Show me one place where I've attacted anyone here so rudely.

People think that because, in my experience, the way people communicate with others reflects their personality. Someone who is kind and considerate to other people is invariably kind and considerate to their animals. Maybe not always in the animals' best interests, but that's not the point. Someone who is curt and demanding and rarely even realises that they're being inconsiderate to people when they talk to them is often the same way with their animals. Not saying you are, just saying that's been my experience. I've met plenty of people online that have no idea about the appropriate way to communicate with other people. And guess what? In real life, they're exactly the same. Being polite isn't hard, and I'm certainly not going to waste my time wading through all your posts to find one that shows how aggressive you can be. It would probably take me about 10 minutes max, but what's the point? Like every other person I've met who doesn't know when they're being rude, you won't listen to me if I point it out to you. So that's all I'm going to say about it.

You know, experience is vital, but it doesn't count for everything. How do you suppose scientists start out? With nothing but theory. All they can do is read up on everyone else's experiences and build an idea in their heads about what is happening and why. Not everyone's experiences point you in the same direction, but it's easy to pinpoint what is usual and what is unusual. When I was designing baby scientific studies during my training, I had pretty much zero experience, but I had acres of papers filled with other people's experiences and it wasn't hard to learn what to expect and why. That's all you've got when you go into the field for the first time, and that is worth a hell of a lot. Direct experience rounds your education, but without that theory, you may as well stay home.

My point is, just because people haven't done it doesn't mean they're not worth listening to. If you only want to hear from people that have done scent or bite training with a clicker, then you can shout and demand and ridicule all you like, but you're unlikely to get it. Even if there was a lurker out there who had done exactly that, I doubt they'd string themselves up for you to pick apart, which it seems like is what you want to do. What I suggest is that you go start a thread addressing the "natural" ways dogs learn and we'll take it over there.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Sure, using a clicker doesn't mean someones found or are using a new way of training.  the training techniques themselves have been around a long time. A tool (the clicker) was simply used to replace the voice. For some, it (the clicker) became the be all end all of dog training. But of course it's not, it's just another form of training. And again, training that's been around long before the clicker.

Argh!  No no no no no - the clicker does not just replace the voice in conventional training methods.  Maybe its just bad wording again, but I need to make sure this point is clarified, it's so fundaemntal and every other point relies on it.....  If that's how you have used it/seen it used then it was being used incorrectly and it's full potential was not explored.  You don't just "click" instead of saying "Good" or "good dog".  There is much more to it than that.  However, you can do marker training and use your voice instead of a click or whistle (although I maintain that this is generally less precise and therefore less effective.  Anyone else that I know of who has also tried both agrees, but again, that's one for another day and another thread....) 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I'll answer with a question, how would *you* do it in teaching bite work?

I have never taught "bite work" so anything I say about it would be purely speculation and guesswork.  Is there any point in following that line of debate?  Sure I can go down that road if I know I'm not going to be ridiculed for my approximations.  I was only interested if you thought it would work at all and why/why not.  (For clarification, when I said "click", I should have said "signal" or "marker".  Most people use the term "click-treat" because it's widely used, snappy and easy to say, but anyone who uses a different signal just reads "click" as whatever their marker is and anyone who uses a different reinforcer than food just reads "treat" as "reward".)

I meant teaching a "raw" dog "bite work" from scratch and using the whistle as the marker.  How you train dogs currently and how the whistle is incorporated doesn't really answer that?  In any case, to keep this thread on track I'll open a new thread for this line of discussion.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

By "how did you find it", I meant how did you find the method - fun, rewarding, confusing, frustrating, long winded, easy, hard, too alien....?

Some are fun, some are hard, depends on the dog. Frustrating, never. Confusing, I ask one who knows more than me. Alien, good movie.

This answer doesn't make sense - Have you ever tried the "shaping" method?  (As in the context I explained)  And how did you find it?  Not how did you find teaching these skills or chains of behaviours.

Okay folks...we have a choice.

This forum can be about A-dog or it can be about clicker training.

So.... what's it going to be?

One of the best things about it to my mind is: its pretty hard, if not nigh on impossible to screw up! So just relax and have fun with it. You won't do any harm.

 
That's my approach. As I've pointed out in another thread, I have gotten a clicker and get my tips from Pryor's site. I don't see it as mutually exclusive from the physical measures I have sometimes used, ranging from scruffing to simple body-blocking. I do see it as another tool to reinforce the treat training and perhaps make a better connection and strengthen the stay and recall, which I consider the most important commands, should he ever be in an unrestrained situation. I don't allow such a situation to exist but the world is full of possibilities. Anything can happen and I want solid recall and stay. And, in practicality, 98 % of his training is based on treats or food I give to him. I don't NILIF his regular meal but he has to sit or down for bits of meat from my plate and he will do a canine impression of Baryshnikov for these cheapie treats I can buy by the pound at Petco. And he will do all of the above all at once for the baked turkey treats I can get at Canine Comissary in Plano, Tx.
 
He is extremely smart and I see the clicker as a way to expand upon that by introducing a steady sound that doesn't depend on inflection so that, eventually, the word always elicits a response, regardless of inflection, because it's been linked through a sound that has no inflection. Except for a few keyed up circumstances, he is food motivated, which is the lab heritage shining through. But he is independent while centered on me, which is the Sibe heritage.

I think the more independant a dog is, the better they do with a clicker.

But he is independent while centered on me, which is the Sibe heritage.

ORIGINAL: corvus


People think that because, in my experience, the way people communicate with others reflects their personality.

So far I've communicated with people here the same way they communicate with me. But hey, you want to see only half the picture, well "in my experience" that says a lot about someones "personality".

Someone who is kind and considerate to other people is invariably kind and considerate to their animals.

What a load of hogwash, where's that written and proved in stone. You can sit there and try all you want to "suggest" I'm cruel to animals, but people that know me, know better. What do you know about me? Here's what you know about me. Words on a page dude, words on a page.

Someone who is curt and demanding and rarely even realises that they're being inconsiderate to people when they talk to them is often the same way with their animals.

That's nothing more than a thought in *your* brain. And again, suggesting I mistreat animals, showing your just as bad as someothers here, when it comes to a certain amount of rudeness.

 

Not saying you are, just saying that's been my experience.

Your not??? Good job.[]

I've met plenty of people online that have no idea about the appropriate way to communicate with other people. And guess what? In real life, they're exactly the same.

Yep, why I've seen some of those people here. So you meet a lot of people online or is that just more guessing on your part?

Being polite isn't hard

I know, some others and now you might give it a try.

and I'm certainly not going to waste my time wading through all your posts to find one that shows how aggressive you can be.

Try paying a little better attention, I didn't say point out a post that shows that I can be "aggressive" (because many of the regulars here are..."aggressive). I said find me a post where I out right attacked another member of this board and said anything even close to...*you most likely are a trainer that abuses dogs*.

It would probably take me about 10 minutes max.

Lets see them dude. Bring it on. Just remember what it is your actually looking for.

but what's the point?

The point is, you can't.

Like every other person I've met who doesn't know when they're being rude, you won't listen to me if I point it out to you. So that's all I'm going to say about it.

 I listen when people make sense, and use all the facts, not just ones they think will help further their case.
 

Direct experience rounds your education, but without that theory, you may as well stay home.

See, here's a good example of someone (you) not listening to what I've actually said. There's nothing wrong with "theory" except when it's stated as fact, and it's really nothing more than someones opinion.

My point is, just because people haven't done it doesn't mean they're not worth listening to.

Here's one problem with that. You can read all the books you want about bite work and how *clicker* training might work. But you show up on my training field with a clicker and what you *think* you know. I'll show you dogs that will teach you the actual facts of the matter. And by the way, clicker training has been around awhile now and yet police and military still use what they know works. Why is it they're not jumping all over clicker training. Are you actually taking the stand of, they just don't know better?

If you only want to hear from people that have done scent or bite training with a clicker, then you can shout and demand and ridicule all you like, but you're unlikely to get it.

And where are all those people? And I never "ridicule" those who can actually back up what their claiming. "shout and demand"??? Seeing just what you want to again.

Even if there was a lurker out there who had done exactly that, I doubt they'd string themselves up for you to pick apart, which it seems like is what you want to do.

That's *your* theory, now you know what I mean about it not actually being a fact.

What I suggest is that you go start a thread addressing the "natural" ways dogs learn and we'll take it over there.

I suggest you start the threads you want, and I'll start the ones that I want. How's that work for ya?

Chuffy

I could be misunderstanding you and you could be misunderstanding me. I think this is one of those, *we need to be there kind of things*. Like a show and tell. Now that! would be awesome.

ORIGINAL: JM

Okay folks...we have a choice.

This forum can be about A-dog or it can be about clicker training.

So.... what's it going to be?

I vote for the about me part.[] Bahahahaha

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Sounds like a crossover dog who is having trouble being creative -in the past training sessions and learning has always relied on him being told or shown what to do, so to just start experimenting and throwing new stuff out there is alien to him.  It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong.  He just needs a little more time and patience.  It is worth it when you get the "light bulb moment" []

Sounds like it to me, too.  Start with an easier exercise.  Hold your hand in front of his face - if he touches it, C/T.  Repeat.  Once he starts "pushing the lever" (your hand) to get the treat, he "gets it" that the action results in the reward.  He now understands that the object of this game is to "make mommy click", and may try to offer more behaviors.  Dogs that have only been lured, or corrected for being wrong, are slower at this than dogs that have been clicker trained from the get go, but they all can learn.  My hound was force trained by a previous owner, but now has a ball trying to figure out what he needs to do to get mom to C/T.

Chuffy

I could be misunderstanding you and you could be misunderstanding me. I think this is one of those, *we need to be there kind of things*. Like a show and tell. Now that! would be awesome.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Awsomedog, it sounds like you don't know what shaping is. Have you ever read about it, or seen it done, or tried it?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Sounds like it to me, too.  Start with an easier exercise.  Hold your hand in front of his face - if he touches it, C/T.  Repeat.  Once he starts "pushing the lever" (your hand) to get the treat, he "gets it" that the action results in the reward.  He now understands that the object of this game is to "make mommy click", and may try to offer more behaviors.  Dogs that have only been lured, or corrected for being wrong, are slower at this than dogs that have been clicker trained from the get go, but they all can learn.  My hound was force trained by a previous owner, but now has a ball trying to figure out what he needs to do to get mom to C/T.

 
I tried that the other day and he did it about 4 times and then walked out of the room :-(  But you are right, I think I just have to be patient and do little bits at a time.  I guess I need to increase my treat value, too - i was using a high value treat, and then I ran out so I was just using some of his kibble, which probably wasn't that enticing. 
 
I definitely have never "forced" him when training, I am/was more of a luring type of trainer.  But I really want that lighbulb moment!!!

You know... I think keeping training sessions short is at least as important for us as it is for the dogs.

Luvmyswissy -

Maybe the problem I have is trying to train an already trained dog.  CT get boring for me.  I think I could get him to do many of the things I am trying already without the clicker just  by using my hands and voice and the commands he already knows.  But I am playing around with it.  Like many say, what can it hurt.

I think you're totally right with the already-trained part. It's just as easy for us to get frustrated trying to learn new things as it is for our doggies! I'm going through the same thing right now, but I definitely agree with what others have said - if this clicking stuff works as well as the folks here seem to think it does, it will be teaching a whole new way of thinking and of solving problems, which I think would be really valuable for both my dog and me.

(And btw, the "block" feature of this forum is really fun [])

Edited for typo.

ORIGINAL: catherinec

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Sounds like it to me, too.  Start with an easier exercise.  Hold your hand in front of his face - if he touches it, C/T.  Repeat.  Once he starts "pushing the lever" (your hand) to get the treat, he "gets it" that the action results in the reward.  He now understands that the object of this game is to "make mommy click", and may try to offer more behaviors.  Dogs that have only been lured, or corrected for being wrong, are slower at this than dogs that have been clicker trained from the get go, but they all can learn.  My hound was force trained by a previous owner, but now has a ball trying to figure out what he needs to do to get mom to C/T.

I tried that the other day and he did it about 4 times and then walked out of the room :-(  But you are right, I think I just have to be patient and do little bits at a time.  I guess I need to increase my treat value, too - i was using a high value treat, and then I ran out so I was just using some of his kibble, which probably wasn't that enticing. 

I definitely have never "forced" him when training, I am/was more of a luring type of trainer.  But I really want that lighbulb moment!!!

Some dogs are easily frustrated, while others keep following you out of the room hoping that you won't put the clicker away LOL.  Keep the sessions short, and when you get a really good response, remember to jackpot the dog, and add some of your usual happy voice praise.  You can also work with rewards other than food.  My dogs love to eat, but Sequoyah is sure she has done something really cool if I pop out her frisbee and toss it as the reward!

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


Awsomedog, it sounds like you don't know what shaping is. Have you ever read about it, or seen it done, or tried it?

And it sounds to me like you don't know what your talking about period. I've answered those same questions in other threads and here. If you can't retain information you read, you might seek some help for that.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada


Awsomedog, it sounds like you don't know what shaping is. Have you ever read about it, or seen it done, or tried it?

And it sounds to me like you don't know what your talking about period. I've answered those same questions in other threads and here. If you can't retain information you read, you might seek some help for that.

 
It's not an insult, I mean I only learned about shaping on this forum much like many others. It just seemed from your responses that you didn't know what it was. It's a neat training tool and a fun way to bond with your dog. Have you ever tried it?