Resistance is futile!!!!!

ORIGINAL: corvus

Whoa. The thing I find most bizarre about you, Awsomedog, is that you claim to work with aggressive dogs, and yet, you often come across so aggressive yourself. Sometimes I don't know what to believe from you.

This one always cracks me up, you people *think* because I'm curt when I speak, or state something in a matter of fact way, that somehow that has something to do with how I am towards dogs. Bahahahaha *Luv* even went as far as directly insulting me, saying, *I was a trainer that abused dogs*. LOL making her one of the rudest people on this forum. Show me one place where I've attacted anyone here so rudely.

I have never even looked into scent training for dogs, but my understanding is that part of why clicker training (or operant conditioning) is so useful is because you can use it to teach literally anything. In theory.

And there's the problem, and I'm not trying to or insulting you, when I say, you don't know. You can only guess or theorize as to if it would work in scent training. And lets not even go into bite work.

In theory, the possibilities are limited only by imagination (and perhaps some physiology []).

If I'm holding a tooth pick in my hand, I can imagine all I want about how it might fly me to the moon, but that won't make it so.

I'm not claiming that clicker training is obviously the BEST way to scent train a dog, but I will venture to say it can be done, and may work very well in certain situations.

But again, it would only be a guess.

I was watching them train a scent dog to detect cancer on a documentary, once, and they most certainly were using a clicker. The signalling itself was already down pat, but they were using the clicker to teach the new scent, i.e., cancer. Or are you talking strictly about scent work in the field?

Good lord, how long ago did that documentary come out? And why is that after that people who work with scent detector dogs didn't jump all over it? Could it be because there's a much more natural way of doing it. As for the "cancer" dog I'll have to go back and find the film before commenting further on it.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

My "argh" was because I was having problems physically posting my reply, not because your "questions are hard"!!!!!!  The only hard part about them is how they seem to contradict one another in places, making it hard for me to see what your getting at and in others appearing to suggest that you don't really understand the underlying princiapls of CT at all.

Really? LOL 

For instance, your refusal to get past the "clicker" part.

"My voice and the clicker may be used for the same purpose, but without the clicker, it's not "clicker" training."

[It's just a name used because loads of people who train this way use a clicker.  It doesn't get called something else because you use your voice only, or a buzzer or flashlight.  It's a misnomer.  It's the method that counts, not the equipment.  The equipment is irrelevant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  From hereon in, in this thread, I shall refer to it as marker training.From this post it sounds like you use the same method minus the gadget - is that right?

Marker training would make more sense, sinse I don't know anyone who doesn't use a clicker, call what they do...clicker training.

Unless I understood the first part wrong, this part directly contradicts it and your puzzlement over the difference is what suggests to me that you don't understand the underlying principals of marker training.  Perhaps that is why you are still "looking for the pros"?  Maybe I am just wording my posts badly.  I'll try to explain what I mean.  There is a difference between
A) Simply saying "Good" or "Well done" when the dog gets it right and
B) specifically "charging" a signal (such as a clicker or your voice for example) by inextricably pairing it with something the dog finds reinforcing (often a food reward but not always) and then using that signal to precisely "mark" the exact behaviour you want and follow it with a reward. 
So..... please can you clarify - which training method do you use - A or B?

I use A for some dogs and some things. And I use B for somedogs and some things. Depends on the dog and, or the task, or both. So I've not contradicted myself, you misunderstood me. Perhaps it was my wording.

And when you say "lol, I am still looking for the pros" - are you saying you see no need to use a gadget to replace your voice or are you saying you see no value in the method at all?  Or are you saying that you don't see any lace for the method in your specialised area?

I 've seen some great training done with a clicker. However, I never seen it work any better than one using they're voice. And it simply doesn't work in all fields of dog work. IMPO. that's all I'm saying.  

  


[blockquote]quote:

Also, have you ever tried "shaping" a behaviour from scratch?  How did you find it?  (Have you seen the "Paco" video link on Youtube where he learns to close a drawer with his nose?  What did you think)[/blockquote]


Yes of course, I like to teach dogs to do things like, carry an item for one person to the next, get the mail, find certain objects, and on and on. What do you mean, "how did I find it"? And no i didn't see the video.

Once again we are stumbling over terminology here.  "Shaping" does not equal teaching a dog a skill or even a complex chain of behaviours, at least not in the context I was using it.  There are lots of ways to teach a dog to, for example, fetch the paper or find certain objects.  I've done it myself without shaping.  "Shaping" is one of the methods of teaching the dog to, for example, carry an item from one person to another or close a drawer with his nose.  By "how did you find it", I meant how did you find the method - fun, rewarding, confusing, frustrating, long winded, easy, hard, too alien....?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Awsomedog, if macho has no place in dog work, which it doesn't, then why do you think people perceive you that way on this message board?  Your posts have a distinctly macho tone, and you ask questions that you think you, and only you, know the answers to.  So, why would you expect that anyone would want to participate in a discussion that always ends up with you picking apart their posts line by line?  Are you "correcting" the other members???  NRM.

No, no, and no. I'm asking to see if anyone *has* the answers. How else am I going to find out who knows what?

As far as being "macho" goes, lol sorry i don't speak with a mouth full of sugar or to yours and some others liking. I have how ever seen some of you who are complaining, be very rude to some members on the site. so you might want to think about your actions when your judging others.

I think it was possibly just the wording.  So that clears that up - you don't see the benefit in using a "clicker" but still see the value of the method and use it for some things. 

Which areas do you think marker training is no good for?  Would this include bite work?  And is this because the dog is so intent on the task at hand that he doesn't "hear" the click, particularly at a distance?  If so, is there any reason why the marker training method couldn't be used in this field but using a whistle instead?  I'm not saying that would be better or worse or the same or whatever.  I'm just interested in whether you think it would work at all.
 
ETA: there was no response to the Q on shaping.....

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

No point, is there? [sm=elvis.gif]

At least I am who I am out in the open. I don't pm people just to insult and then whine about what they do on open forums. That's what you do.

  Chuffy

Gotta run, I'll answer later.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

1. Shove dog into the desired position with alot of rudeness and force, repeat command over and over, toss some treats at them.
2. Retreive dog from other room after it wanders off from boredom and confusion.
3. Shove dog back into position, yell commands louder this time, stomp around in frustration.
4. Repeat steps 1-3.
5. Quit.

That is no type of training I would ever use, and I mean never.

And I believe that was the point of my post...that I was a horrible trainer. I had read many traditional dog training books, gotten advice from everyone I know...and it didn't really click for me. I don't know why, but I always felt completely unsure of what I supposed to do and how I was supposed to make them understand. The whole point was that clicker training, like I said, filled in the blanks for me. It made things easy and opened alot of doors for me and my dogs that I felt were previously locked due to my lack of ability.

To be honest, your insanely rude posting style is the reason I stay out of most training discussions. You are beyond ridiculous in the way you convey your messages, and it makes me wonder how you must relate to the dogs you train. Get off your high horse and stop being so incredibly rude to everyone. I doubt I'm the only one who avoids the training forums due to your rudeness. If you respond to any of my posts in the future, know that my ignoring you is NOT due to me not having a response, or thinking that you are in any way right. I simply will not respond to someone who refuses to be civil.

Seems to me that if you are so against clicker training, you could stay the heck off the clicker training forum, eh?

Anyway, on to the actual discussion...

Ratsicles, I'm curious.  Before you started clicker training, did you think your dogs were unhappy or "shut down"?  If so, was that what made you try it?  And, if not, do you now think that there is a distinct difference in their demeanor today that tells you that they might not have been as happy before?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out, as a trainer, is how to convey the lightbulb moment to people.  What did it look like for you?

I don't think they were unhappy in general. They seemed to be happy dogs...I had a good relationship with all of them, they looked at me as their leader, we had fun together, etc. I wasn't  mean or even unfair with them...I just refrained from teaching them any more than I thought I had to for them to be reasonably well behaved. I knew what a poor trainer I was and didn't want to subject them to it any more than I had to. 

Were they unhappy during training? Yes. When they knew a training session was about to take place, they sat meekly in front of me, heads down, ears back, foreheads wrinkled. They wanted SO much to understand what I was trying to get across, and I was never able to teach it. I would get so frustrated I'd have to leave the room and stomp around for a while. They always got upset because they thought I was angry with them, when really I was just frustrated with myself.  

I do think that they were shut down. Changes started taking place back in October when I got Ogre. Prior to that the only way I knew how to train was using lots of force. Ogre wouldn't stand for it...if I went too far, he would lie down, eyes glazed, and refuse to budge until I got my act together. He has been a GREAT teacher and my training style did improve greatly once I had to figure out something other than force and yelling that would work. Still, I wasn't particularly good at getting my point across, I was just much nicer about it. My dogs remained for the most part, confused, and didn't enjoy training.

I had been tossing around ideas for other types of training in my head, but I really thought clicker training seemed too good to be true and I never really seriously considered it. Then, the other day, I walked into Petsmart and someone from their training program walked up and handed me a free clicker. They were promoting their obedience classes, and handing them out. So I thought, "What the heck," went home, looked up the basics of clicker training online, and started with Ogre. By the end of the first session I was almost reduced to tears.

Our training started out as it usually did....he sat there, realized what was coming, and sighed heavily. I started charging the clicker, and that got him insterested. He perked up, and after a few seconds, started nosing the clicker every time. He realized that the clicker meants treats. By this time he was watching my intently...and he started to whine a little. He was getting anxious because I wasn't giving him any commands and he didn't know what to do. Finally, he sat. (he already knows "sit") I clicked and treated. He stared at me for a second and then sat again. C/T. After about 3 more repititions, I swear his whole expression and demeanor changed. He ran through every trick he knew. He brought me each toy from his toybox. He ran around the room touching various objects with his nose. He barked. He did everything he could to get me to click for him. I had never, ever in my life seen my dogs offer any behaviors before...I had never seen them think, or really do anything other than what they were told. They always just sat and waited to be given a command. The difference was so much that after everything, I really did shed a few tears. I felt like I had been cheating them all for so long.

And I *have* seen the effects of clicker training creeping into other parts of their lives. Ogre, especially, has always been the other dogs' punching bag. He just seems so much more confidant now, and the other dogs see it and are quite a bit more respectful towards him. He's had a fear of building since I got him, and yesterday, we made it all the way into Petsmart  without him shaking and urinating in fear. For him, that was major. I did it using the clicker- for every step he took towards the building, I clicked and treated. After about 10 minutes, we made it all the way inside...and as he started to get overwhelmed by what was going on around him, I managed to hold his attention long enough with the clicker to get him to run through his tricks. It was such a confidance booster, that I was able to calmly walk him around the store twice without him shutting down, shaking, and peeing. We still have to work on building his confidance in those situations, but the fact that he was able to do that much is amazing.

So that was it for me. A 90 pound dog who could be reduced to a shivering mess at the thought of going out in public, and who would allow a 10 pound chihuahua to chase him around the house, nipping his heels, has made an almost complete turnaround. He's still the lowest ranking, and he's still a sensitive dog...but he's much less anxious, much more confidant, and much more prepared to deal with the world than I think he was a few days ago. My other dogs have benefited from it as well...even Pepito, who isn't all there mentally and was never able to learn basic obedience, is starting to understand that the clicker at least is a good thing and he now "dances" on command...which, as small as it is, is an amazing accomplishment for him.

Just giving my experiences . . . I've read a lot of these posts on clicker training, read some articles, looked at some videos . . . but I think I'm still doing it wrong.  I feel like I've had much better success luring the behaviors.  Maybe I need to take a class.
 
Anyway, like yesterday, I tried the box game.  The thing is, Caesar will repeat the behavior about 3x so I know he gets that the behavior he did just got him a treat, but then he will stop doing it and either just lay down in front of me and look at me, or go on to something else.  I feel like I can't get him to the point where he stays with one object or movement long enough to work with that behavior - does that make sense?  Then I don't know if I should stop the session, or start clicking for other random behaviors (or is that more confusing if you click for different random behaviors in one session). 
 
Argh - It seems like it should be quite easy to do but I just get really confused!  And I think my confusion is making him confused.  And is he frustrated by it? I have no idea if he is liking what we are doing or if he is frustrated by it.
 
So that's why I love the idea of clicker training and it makes perfect sense to me when I read about it, but putting it into action is a whole other story.

Sounds like a crossover dog who is having trouble being creative -in the past training sessions and learning has always relied on him being told or shown what to do, so to just start experimenting and throwing new stuff out there is alien to him.  It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong.  He just needs a little more time and patience.  It is worth it when you get the "light bulb moment" []

Be patient with the crossover dogs. They are learning an entirely new way of thinking and learning. It's like if you went to school for 10 years where all the chairs were in rows and the teacher just dictated information and you copied it down and if you didn't you got punished-- and then all of a sudden you walk into class one day and the teacher tells you to write a story about anything you want. It's hard at first for the dog to unlearn what he'd done previously and relearn a new way. They clicker isn't a magic device that "makes" dogs behave a certain way, it is a communication tool that opens up a whole new way of working together between dogs and humans. But the dog still has to learn this new "language" before you and they can really communicate.
Brittany, I too was just completely wracked with guilt when I started crossing Conrad over. The difference between him and Marlowe (who came untrained and was clicked pretty much from the beginning) was just incredible, and depressing. In training, Marlowe was animated, thinking, wagging, experimenting and being creative. Conrad just sat there and looked at me, then laid down and waited for me to tell him what to do. The first time I tried to play the box game with Conrad it was a crashing failure and I actually called DH in to watch what was going on because I was just so devastated at what we'd done to him with his previous training. He did the same thing that has  been described in this thread--he'd perform the behavior I was clicking a couple times, then just stop, lay down and wait. He got over it, though. Patient, slow, positive work together and after a couple months (I took it very slow, he's a naturally anxious dog and I didn't want to overstress him, and I'm not in a race here) the lightbulb went on and he's caught up to Marlowe's level of clicker savvy.
 
I've said it in a few other threads too, but I think the thing that using clicker training has made so clear to me is how incredibly little we expect of our dogs. We get them trained to a point that's "good enough" for us, for the dog to be able to live in our house without being a pain, and we define that as a "good dog".  But at that point, I think most of us then stop. But dogs are living creatures with an intellectual potential that will remain unfulfilled if we--the managers of their environments--just focus on keeping them from being pains in the arse in our houses and never think about how we can teach them to be more creative, more intelligent, more able to communicate with the other creatures they share the house with, more bold, more courageous. For me it isn't about the "tricks"--I've never been intersted in having a dog that does tricks, really--it is about what teaching those tricks teaches my dogs beyond just that behavior. It teaches them how to think. Think about all the facts and specific tasks you learned in school--how many of those do you actually remember? But ultimately, that's not really the point of schooling, just a handy side effect. What you actually learned in school was how to process information, how to think, how to communicate, how to problem-solve. And that's the effect I see clicker training as having had on my dogs. The tricks are cute and fun and often very important to their well-being (coming when called is simply another trick), but much more important for me is their ability to think and learn and solve problems and live up to their full intellecutal potentials.

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles


To be honest, your insanely rude posting style is the reason I stay out of most training discussions. You are beyond ridiculous in the way you convey your messages, and it makes me wonder how you must relate to the dogs you train. Get off your high horse and stop being so incredibly rude to everyone. I doubt I'm the only one who avoids the training forums due to your rudeness. If you respond to any of my posts in the future, know that my ignoring you is NOT due to me not having a response, or thinking that you are in any way right. I simply will not respond to someone who refuses to be civil.

Facts, you may want to actually have some when addressing me. Otherwise, yes, feel free to ignore me, and that includes pm's. Hey, have you heard about the block button?[]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I think it was possibly just the wording.  So that clears that up - you don't see the benefit in using a "clicker" but still see the value of the method and use it for some things.

Sure, using a clicker doesn't mean someones found or are using a new way of training.  the training techniques themselves have been around a long time. A tool (the clicker) was simply used to replace the voice. For some, it (the clicker) became the be all end all of dog training. But of course it's not, it's just another form of training. And again, training that's been around long before the clicker.

Which areas do you think marker training is no good for? Would this include bite work?

I'll answer with a question, how would *you* do it in teaching bite work?

And is this because the dog is so intent on the task at hand that he doesn't "hear" the click, particularly at a distance?

And here I was thinking we were discussing marking, in bite work, but you meant with a clicker. First off I would never use a clicker for bite work, why? Because any dog worth his salt wouldn't pay attention to a click when on the bite. And any dog that would, would be cut from the program up front. A K9 handlers life is more important than what anyone thinks about a clicker. Now if your teaching a soft dog to *act* aggressive like for movies, well then.

If so, is there any reason why the marker training method couldn't be used in this field but using a whistle instead?  I'm not saying that would be better or worse or the same or whatever.  I'm just interested in whether you think it would work at all.

First, *you* would need to break down what part you think you'd use it for in bite work. Using a whistle in bite work would look something like this. Dog is turned loose, dog grads bad guy, handler grabs dog and gives release command, dog doesn't break hold, correction warning and repeat of the command is quickly given, dog still doesn't break hold. Holding the dog by collar, a blow into a silent whistle to momentarily break the dogs concentration is given and when the dog breaks off, he or she is held back from suspect until suspect is under controll.

ETA: there was no response to the Q on shaping.....

Did you mean this?

By "how did you find it", I meant how did you find the method - fun, rewarding, confusing, frustrating, long winded, easy, hard, too alien....?

Some are fun, some are hard, depends on the dog. Frustrating, never. Confusing, I ask one who knows more than me. Alien, good movie.

I guess everyone is just different...what's easy for one person is hard for another. Traditional training was so difficult for me. It always went something like this:

1. Shove dog into the desired position with alot of rudeness and force, repeat command over and over, toss some treats at them.
2. Retreive dog from other room after it wanders off from boredom and confusion.
3. Shove dog back into position, yell commands louder this time, stomp around in frustration.
4. Repeat steps 1-3.
5. Quit.

That's how it always was for me. I never knew what I was doing and my dogs learned to do nothing from fear of not doing the right thing. They learned not to think...when it came time for training, they just sat there, eyes glazed, waiting to be shoved and scolded for 15 minutes. It was sad and frustrating for everyone involved.

Wow, I am sorry you treated your dog like that thinking you were doing things right.   I never did those things you mentioned, and never felt like I was rude or mean to my dog.  I trained my dog with positive and gental leash corrections and he is very well behavioed and obdience trained already.  As for forcing, pushing and being totally angry or frustrated that wasn't me.  I had a great behaviorist who taught me not to do those thing.  If you were using those methods due to trainer you really were misguided.  The very first command I ever taught my dog was "come" and he the most reliable dog for come I know.  So I never chased him around the house and pulled him to me.  My trainer instilled the importance of the come command and how that one command was the brick and morter to all my training.  The next command was stay - after that we worked on his behaviors - with NILIF and it was all quite easy from there.

Maybe the problem I have is trying to train an already trained dog.  CT get boring for me.  I think I could get him to do many of the things I am trying already without the clicker just  by using my hands and voice and the commands he already knows.  But I am playing around with it.  Like many say, what can it hurt.

Wow, I am sorry you treated your dog like that thinking you were doing things right.   I never did those things you mentioned, and never felt like I was rude or mean to my dog.  I trained my dog with positive and gental leash corrections and he is very well behavioed and obdience trained already.  As for forcing, pushing and being totally angry or frustrated that wasn't me.  I had a great behaviorist who taught me not to do those thing.  Where just tring to train you dog without anyone giving you direction and help? 

 
 
Okay woah, I was never "mean" to my dogs. I never used physical corrections, and I was NEVER under the delusion that I was doing things "right." I KNEW what a poor trainer I was. When I say "force," I mean gently shoving their bottoms to the ground to teach "sit," gently laying them down to teach "down," keeping a very tight lead to teach "heel"...etc. Forcing their bodies into the positions I wanted, no matter how gently, was the only way I knew how to train...but it was not the way I WANTED to train. I wanted a way of training that would allow me to communicate with my dogs to the point of them doing the behavior I wanted on their own, with no guidance from me other than putting a name/command to their actions. Clicker training did that for me.
 
The truth is, I could not afford a behaviorist if I wanted one. Sorry, not everyone has that kind of money at their disposal. I was NOT mean to my dogs, my dogs did not have serious behavioral problems, and our relationship was fine. I didn't sit around moping over the fact that I was a sucky dog trainer, and neither did my dogs. I trained my dogs the way my parents trained theirs, and everyone else I knew did. I read some traditional dog training books and followed those. I WAS able to houstrain my dogs, teach them basic obedience, and they knew what kind of manners they were supposed to have in public. I was not abusive or cruel towards them, but *Any* kind of force, no matter how gentle, was not the way I wanted to train. I wanted dogs who thought, offered behaviors, and learned things on their own...not dogs who sat and waited meekly to be told what to do.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

Wow, I am sorry you treated your dog like that thinking you were doing things right.   I never did those things you mentioned, and never felt like I was rude or mean to my dog.  I trained my dog with positive and gental leash corrections and he is very well behavioed and obdience trained already.  As for forcing, pushing and being totally angry or frustrated that wasn't me.  I had a great behaviorist who taught me not to do those thing.  Where just tring to train you dog without anyone giving you direction and help? 

Okay woah, I was never "mean" to my dogs. I never used physical corrections, and I was NEVER under the delusion that I was doing things "right." I KNEW what a poor trainer I was. When I say "force," I mean gently shoving their bottoms to the ground to teach "sit," gently laying them down to teach "down," keeping a very tight lead to teach "heel"...etc. Forcing their bodies into the positions I wanted, no matter how gently, was the only way I knew how to train...but it was not the way I WANTED to train. I wanted a way of training that would allow me to communicate with my dogs to the point of them doing the behavior I wanted on their own, with no guidance from me other than putting a name/command to their actions. Clicker training did that for me.

The truth is, I could not afford a behaviorist if I wanted one. Sorry, not everyone has that kind of money at their disposal. I was NOT mean to my dogs, my dogs did not have serious behavioral problems, and our relationship was fine. I didn't sit around moping over the fact that I was a sucky dog trainer, and neither did my dogs. I trained my dogs the way my parents trained theirs, and everyone else I knew did. I read some traditional dog training books and followed those. I WAS able to houstrain my dogs, teach them basic obedience, and they knew what kind of manners they were supposed to have in public. I was not abusive or cruel towards them, but *Any* kind of force, no matter how gentle, was not the way I wanted to train. I wanted dogs who thought, offered behaviors, and learned things on their own...not dogs who sat and waited meekly to be told what to do.

 
That's good but not how your post came across.  Glad you found something that worked for you and your dog.[]