Resistance is futile!!!!!

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I actually enjoy reading about it and visit Karen Pryor's site whenever I get a chance. I do see value in it depending on what you are trying to achieve with a given dog in a given moment.

I'd love to use it in an agility class someday (when I have time...ha-ha). 

The biggest problem for me is the excitement factor I've seen the clicker generate. Some dogs are as nutty as addicts. Good luck to Emma Parson's and her use in this area. Personally, to me "click" does not equal "calm". 

It doesn't equal "shut down" either!  I like when my dog gets excited about training, and BTW, whatever they do when they are excited is also a behavior, thus, it can be modified)

 
It doesn't equal "hyper" either.  You reinforce what you want.  If you want drivey, excited, you click for drivey, if you want calm, you click for calm.  Sure a lot of dogs get excited at the prospect of a training session - so they do for a walk too but you don't stop walking them.  If you don't want to reinforce that excitement and get dragged down the street you just let the excitement dissipate before setting off.  A lot of the videolinks people have posted on shaping don't show a hyper dog.... they show a dog who is concentrating and thinking hard, totally focused on the task at hand and actively problem solving.  In any case, it's great to see smiles when the clicker comes out - it's great when they are so enthusiastic about learning.... I think teachers would think it was great if kids were as enthusiastic about school work.

The clicker is merely the marker that communicates that behavior will result in the reward.  Another strategy merely uses a different bridge mechanism to do the signaling to the dog that a correct action occurred. 
 
Yes I have done some scent discrimination training. 
 
The strategy I presented involves a plan to communicate to the dog what scent of all the scents to focus on. 
 
I did not imply that a dog has to be taught to scent.  I offered a method to develop a method to communicate with dog what scent to focus on.
 
The clicker is merely a tool used to do the same things that occur in any scent discrimination training.  Develop an association between a signal and a behavior.
 
I really do not understand the  level of animosity  I feel when reading your posts.
 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy



Don't assume A-dog isn't interested - the clicker is just a marker delivered at the precise moment the behaviour is offeredand if you replace it with your voice it's still "clicker training", just minus the gadget

Actually it's not. My voice and the clicker may be used for the same purpose, but without the clicker, it's not "clicker" training.

There are pros and cons to using the clicker after all.  The main con for me is I am terrible at losing things, but I don't lose my voice very often!!

lol, I'm still looking for the pro's.

Awsomedog, is that what you do..... the same procedure minus the gadget?  Or just a "Good dog" or "Well done" when the dog does it right?

I use "good" only.

There is a subtle difference....

???

Also, have you ever tried "shaping" a behaviour from scratch?  How did you find it?  (Have you seen the "Paco" video link on Youtube where he learns to close a drawer with his nose?  What did you think)

Yes of course, I like to teach dogs to do things like, carry an item for one person to the next, get the mail, find certain objects, and on and on. What do you mean, "how did I find it"? And no i didn't see the video.

mrv.... can you still fade the clicker out when using it for scent work/scent discrimination.... I  think I vaguely remember something in one of the books I read about it being a good idea to still use the clicker for each correct choise the dog makes, so he knows he definately has made the right choice.... It might have been "Don't Shoot..." but I can't remember.

I'm still waiting to here how a clicker is actually needed in scent work. mrv, perhaps you would like to share how *you* would teach a odor such as marijuana to a dog to begin with. Also, if you where teaching a dog to detect multiple drugs, which drug would you start with and why? Also should a detection dog ever be taught to detect both drugs and explosives? Why or why not?

Well, I know I certainly don't have to teach my dog to hunt, given he's only been retired from being a working scenthound for less than a year. But what I do have to teach him is what I want him to hunt. And I don't see why a clicker couldn't be use to be a bit more precise about that process. He already gets rewarded when he finds the correct article, so why not incorporate the marker that he already knows the meaning of in order to be as clear as I possibly can be in my communication with him? I think that might clear up any confusion he has between just "happening" upon a baited article and knowing that me, mom, is actually wanting him to find that particular article by following one particular scent.
 
He doesn't need help in scent discrimination either, he just needs help in understanding which scent, of all the ones out there, he should discriminate.

The quote you attributed to me was from Chuffy.
 
As to scent detection, I did not claim that I have done that training.  I said I have taught scent discrimination as would be found in competive obedience.
 
I no longer am willing to be baited.  Go ahead with your derisive comments.  I can get no more of a straight answer from you than we can get from the government.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I actually enjoy reading about it and visit Karen Pryor's site whenever I get a chance. I do see value in it depending on what you are trying to achieve with a given dog in a given moment.

I'd love to use it in an agility class someday (when I have time...ha-ha). 

The biggest problem for me is the excitement factor I've seen the clicker generate. Some dogs are as nutty as addicts. Good luck to Emma Parson's and her use in this area. Personally, to me "click" does not equal "calm". 

It doesn't equal "shut down" either!  I like when my dog gets excited about training, and BTW, whatever they do when they are excited is also a behavior, thus, it can be modified)

No point in bringing an inflamatory term into the conversation to sidetrack the topic. Funny how it's always one extreme or the other with no balance or middle ground. []

Dogs which are being clicker trained are anticipatory, drivey, and excited. Great if that's what you want. Personally, outside of agility (where I see a great value) that is not the state I am trying to acheive with an out of control dog. Period.

Some of the dogs behave more like gambling addicts looking for a pay-off. The focus is on the pay-off. I don't want either the excitement level or the focus off of me when I am working with social and behavioral problems. I want the communication to be between me and the dog within a social dynamic, not between the dog and their instant (fix) gratification. [8D]
 
And I'm sorry, but excited does not equal "happy" anymore than click equals "calm", IMOAE.

ORIGINAL: mrv


Yes I have done some scent discrimination training.

Really? For who? And did you use a clicker.

I really do not understand the  level of animosity  I feel when reading your posts.

Animosity? just trying to get to the guts of the matter. I spent years working with drug, bomb, amd human detection dogs, I've never seen anyone use a clicker, ever. and I know a lot of people in that line of work. I di ask some questions in my other post, I'm looking forward to hearing your answers. The questions are not geared towards agitating you, or saying you don't know what your talking about, they are from the fact that i spent many years in that field of work, and the answers will tell me what you know. And perhaps, you may prove me wrong and teach me something I don't know.

Outta time, gotta run.

ORIGINAL: mrv

The quote you attributed to me was from Chuffy.

No, I was also addressing your comments.

As to scent detection, I did not claim that I have done that training.  I said I have taught scent discrimination as would be found in competive obedience.

What? Teaching scent work is teaching scent work. You either know or don't know how to do it. you've either done it or you haven't.

I no longer am willing to be baited.  Go ahead with your derisive comments.  I can get no more of a straight answer from you than we can get from the government.

Right back at ya. And your the one that's not answering the questions. start with a simple one. How do you introduce a oder to a dog?

argh

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

argh

The questions will only get harder. Here's what some of you might be missing. I've been in this game a long time. I've done OBT, scent, protection and behavior work, and I've seen all sides to it, from force to clicker training. I've seen the good and the bad, and the ugly, and unlike *some*...I'm not talking what I might do, I'm talking what I've done. So you want to be offended by that, well, not much I can do. Some of you want to guess what you'd do, or say what so and so does, go for it, but I'm not talking about things I haven't done *** or I'm guessing at ***or what might can be done***. I'm talking about...what's done. So untill *one* person here can even explain how odor is introduced to a dog, I don't want to hear how clicker training..."can work" in scent detection, I want to here facts. I was told by spiritdogs in a pm that basically I'd have my *ss handed to me if my "macho" *ss came over to "The clicker side", well here I am, I'd suggest someone bring it. Or you could just go after my spelling errors. And as far as macho goes, it has no place in dog work.

Whoa. The thing I find most bizarre about you, Awsomedog, is that you claim to work with aggressive dogs, and yet, you often come across so aggressive yourself. Sometimes I don't know what to believe from you.

I have never even looked into scent training for dogs, but my understanding is that part of why clicker training (or operant conditioning) is so useful is because you can use it to teach literally anything. In theory. In theory, the possibilities are limited only by imagination (and perhaps some physiology []). With my VERY limited experiments with clicker training, I have found it to be such that all you need is infinite patience, good timing, and a little clueyness about your dog (or other animal) as an individual. I'm not yet convinced I can teach my bunny to roll over on her back for a belly rub, because I can't see her offering that behaviour or anything remotely like it ever (other bunnies, yes, this one, no), and I can't see my hare being motivated enough to work for food or anything else for that matter, period (he's a spoilt brat), but when it comes to a domestic animal offering a natural behaviour, hell, does it get any easier?

I'm not claiming that clicker training is obviously the BEST way to scent train a dog, but I will venture to say it can be done, and may work very well in certain situations. I was watching them train a scent dog to detect cancer on a documentary, once, and they most certainly were using a clicker. The signalling itself was already down pat, but they were using the clicker to teach the new scent, i.e., cancer. Or are you talking strictly about scent work in the field?

My "argh" was because I was having problems physically posting my reply, not because your "questions are hard"!!!!!!  The only hard part about them is how they seem to contradict one another in places, making it hard for me to see what your getting at and in others appearing to suggest that you don't really understand the underlying princiapls of CT at all. 

For instance, your refusal to get past the "clicker" part. 

My voice and the clicker may be used for the same purpose, but without the clicker, it's not "clicker" training.

It's just a name used because loads of people who train this way use a clicker.  It doesn't get called something else because you use your voice only, or a buzzer or flashlight.  It's a misnomer.  It's the method that counts, not the equipment.  The equipment is irrelevant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  From hereon in, in this thread, I shall refer to it as marker training.  From this post it sounds like you use the same method minus the gadget - is that right?

(I'm not getting into another debate over voice v clicker - thats been worn out elsewhere and is OT - if you want to discuss that, I think it needs a  new thread.)

  


[blockquote]quote:

Awsomedog, is that what you do..... the same procedure minus the gadget?  Or just a "Good dog" or "Well done" when the dog does it right?[/blockquote]


I use "good" only.




[blockquote]quote:

There is a subtle difference....[/blockquote]



???

Unless I understood the first part wrong, this part directly contradicts it and your puzzlement over the difference is what suggests to me that you don't understand the underlying principals of marker training.  Perhaps that is why you are still "looking for the pros"?  Maybe I am just wording my posts badly.  I'll try to explain what I mean.  There is a difference between
A) Simply saying "Good" or "Well done" when the dog gets it right and
B) specifically "charging" a signal (such as a clicker or your voice for example) by inextricably pairing it with something the dog finds reinforcing (often a food reward but not always) and then using that signal to precisely "mark" the exact behaviour you want and follow it with a reward. 
So..... please can you clarify - which training method do you use - A or B? 
And when you say "lol, I am still looking for the pros" - are you saying you see no need to use a gadget to replace your voice or are you saying you see no value in the method at all?  Or are you saying that you don't see any lace for the method in your specialised area?   

  


[blockquote]quote:

Also, have you ever tried "shaping" a behaviour from scratch?  How did you find it?  (Have you seen the "Paco" video link on Youtube where he learns to close a drawer with his nose?  What did you think)[/blockquote]


Yes of course, I like to teach dogs to do things like, carry an item for one person to the next, get the mail, find certain objects, and on and on. What do you mean, "how did I find it"? And no i didn't see the video.

Once again we are stumbling over terminology here.  "Shaping" does not equal teaching a dog a skill or even a complex chain of behaviours, at least not in the context I was using it.  There are lots of ways to teach a dog to, for example, fetch the paper or find certain objects.  I've done it myself without shaping.  "Shaping" is one of the methods of teaching the dog to, for example, carry an item from one person to another or close a drawer with his nose.  By "how did you find it", I meant how did you find the method - fun, rewarding, confusing, frustrating, long winded, easy, hard, too alien....?

Actually, it is not true that dogs that are clicker trained are always drivey and excited.  I would not characterize Sioux that way, at least to any extreme, and many of my students' dogs are not at all drivey or terribly exciteable.  Clicker training does not change a dog's basic temperament, it merely conveys a message to the dog, which is being trained operantly regardless.  While I might not use a clicker in every training exercise, I am always training my dogs operantly, and without force, for the most part.   That way, my dogs are engaged in learning to earn a reward, not to avoid punishment. 
As to the use of clicker training in scent detection, it is as useful there as in any other training where the dog needs to make a decision.  The clicker is a communication tool.  But, the training is operant conditioning, plain and simple. 
Awsomedog, if macho has no place in dog work, which it doesn't, then why do you think people perceive you that way on this message board?  Your posts have a distinctly macho tone, and you ask questions that you think you, and only you, know the answers to.  So, why would you expect that anyone would want to participate in a discussion that always ends up with you picking apart their posts line by line?  Are you "correcting" the other members???  NRM.

Kirk Turner used a clicker to train a dog, Shing Ling, to detect cancer cells.  He does not use any force methods at all.

For more on the topic of scent detection and clicker training:
www.clickertraining.com/node/77

No point, is there? [sm=elvis.gif]