Resistance is futile!!!!!

Have you ever thought about playing around with any of this stuff? 


http://www.gundogsupply.com/squirscen4oz.html

http://www.eders.com/Decoys_and_Calls_Squirell_Calls-c772-p5,772.html

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


The clicker is just a marker,

Sorry, but that's no news flash.

but what makes it different is that there is no fluctuation, no change in modulation.  It is a consistent sound that  means "That's it! Reinforcer on the way."

The problem with that is, I never had "fluctuation" or "change in modulation" keep me from successfully training a dog.

Until you try it correctly

You like to assume a lot.

you will never be convinced, so no point explaining more, since you aren't interested anyway.

Not being convinced, and not being interested are two different things. If it involves dogs, I'm always interested.

And, there are people who are now using clicker training in bite (Andreas Mueller) and scent work (Dee Ganley)- go figure.
[linkhttp://www.clickandtreat.com/FF01.htm]www.clickandtreat.com/FF01.htm[/link]

Took a look at both of them, I can see where they are using clicker training for OBT, but could you point me to where they are using it in bite or scent work.

Wow, I guess I'm weird in that clicking seemed to GREATLY simplify things for me. I have a pretty ADHD brain myself, and using a clicker added amazing clarity to training for me. I was never sure what to do when it came to normal training. I didn't know how to get my point across and I was never really sure when to reward a dog, if I needed to correct something or not, when they actually understood something...I had been around dogs my whole life, and knew how to teach the basic stuff, but never got much farther than that. I didn't know how, and got frustrated too fast at my lack of ability to communicate what I wanted. Clicker training just seems so idiot proof to me...I picked it up right away and it made someone with such limited training skills as myself able to teach her dogs a multitude of behaviors that wold have otherwise been impossible to teach.

I guess everyone is just different...what's easy for one person is hard for another. [] Traditional training was so difficult for me. It always went something like this:

1. Shove dog into the desired position with alot of rudeness and force, repeat command over and over, toss some treats at them.
2. Retreive dog from other room after it wanders off from boredom and confusion.
3. Shove dog back into position, yell commands louder this time, stomp around in frustration.
4. Repeat steps 1-3.
5. Quit.

That's how it always was for me. I never knew what I was doing and my dogs learned to do nothing from fear of not doing the right thing. They learned not to think...when it came time for training, they just sat there, eyes glazed, waiting to be shoved and scolded for 15 minutes. It was sad and frustrating for everyone involved.

Clicker training just filled in the blanks for me. It gave me a very simple, straightforward, step by step process to follow and lo and behold, it worked. I was surprised. I figured that clicker training was probably a good tool for professional dog trainers who knew what they were doing, but for a doofus like me, it would just further complicate an already big lack of understanding. And boy, was I wrong.

My dogs experienced that often mentioned moment where the light came back on in their eyes, and they learned to think again. It was beautiful, and in the week that I've been doing this, my dogs are different dogs. They're all more confidant, Ogre is much less fearful, and they actually LOVE to learn and try new things. It's a whole side of them that up until now, has been completely surpressed. I am amazed at how intelligent and thinking they can be when given the chance.

Anyway, that's just my experience...I guess it's different for everyone, but wow, I'm amazed at how many people find that a clicker complicates things for them. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it...but for people like me who are dog training impared, I can't think of anything better. I just can't believe I waited so long to give it a try.

Ratsicles, I'm curious.  Before you started clicker training, did you think your dogs were unhappy or "shut down"?  If so, was that what made you try it?  And, if not, do you now think that there is a distinct difference in their demeanor today that tells you that they might not have been as happy before?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out, as a trainer, is how to convey the lightbulb moment to people.  What did it look like for you?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Oh, never mind.....[sm=elvis.gif]

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

1. Shove dog into the desired position with alot of rudeness and force, repeat command over and over, toss some treats at them.
2. Retreive dog from other room after it wanders off from boredom and confusion.
3. Shove dog back into position, yell commands louder this time, stomp around in frustration.
4. Repeat steps 1-3.
5. Quit.

That is no type of training I would ever use, and I mean never.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Oh, never mind.....[sm=elvis.gif]

What? No tar? No feathers? Cool.

Hi everyone,  still waiting for an answer to my question, why can't a clicker be used in scent work? Legitimate question, I'm honestly wondering.

There is no reason that a clicker could not be used for scent work.  You need to have good observation and timing skills because you need to mark the specific behaviors of the dog that indicate discrimination of a particular scent.  A task analysis approach that would break down the behaviors (which might include the behaviors associated with ground tracking or air scenting; casting to find the scent cone; establishing an indication of a find
 
In very novice dogs, the initial step of behaviors would likely be orientation (by body) to the desired scent.  One scent only.  Then working to get some people observable contact with that scent (like dropping the nose as an example).  Once that was well established.  Dog went out looked/smelled for the scent quickly and efficeintly,  add an additional scent as a distractor and start with a scent marker to match.   Just one possible scenario how one might go about establishing scent behaviors in a dog.  This behavior chain is in no way complete or exhaustive,,, just an attempt to describe how a complex set of natural behaviors could be shaped to develop scent discrimination.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Ok, here I am on the dark side. jk [sm=devil.gif] Becuase no one has ever shown me *in person* that a clicker works any better than my own voice. So...[sm=dance.gif] And working with dogs over a couple of *decades* I know a lot of trainers so their skills aren't in question here. I'm not against it, just see no real need for it. I also know it doesn't work in certain fields of dog training, like bite or scent work. IMPO

Let the games begin.

As for me, I shall return to the light.[]

The clicker is just a marker, but what makes it different is that there is no fluctuation, no change in modulation.  It is a consistent sound that  means "That's it! Reinforcer on the way."  Until you try it correctly, you will never be convinced, so no point explaining more, since you aren't interested anyway.
And, there are people who are now using clicker training in bite (Andreas Mueller) and scent work (Dee Ganley)- go figure.
[linkhttp://www.clickandtreat.com/FF01.htm]www.clickandtreat.com/FF01.htm[/link]

 
Don't assume A-dog isn't interested - the clicker is just a marker delivered at the precise moment the behaviour is offeredand if you replace it with your voice it's still "clicker training", just minus the gadget.  There are pros and cons to using the clicker after all.  The main con for me is I am terrible at losing things, but I don't lose my voice very often!! 
 
Awsomedog, is that what you do..... the same procedure minus the gadget?  Or just a "Good dog" or "Well done" when the dog does it right?  There is a subtle difference.... Also, have you ever tried "shaping" a behaviour from scratch?  How did you find it?  (Have you seen the "Paco" video link on Youtube where he learns to close a drawer with his nose?  What did you think)
 
mrv.... can you still fade the clicker out when using it for scent work/scent discrimination.... I  think I vaguely remember something in one of the books I read about it being a good idea to still use the clicker for each correct choise the dog makes, so he knows he definately has made the right choice.... It might have been "Don't Shoot..." but I can't remember.

Yes fading the clicker is one of the training phases.   I personally find Lana Mitchell's sequence of adding the verbal cue and fading the clicker particularly well written.  In essence you make a data based decision which takes into account accuracy over time.  In scent discrimination for "work" I would look for 100% accuracy over 4-5 consequetive days of training before changing any component of the sequence.

I actually enjoy reading about it and visit Karen Pryor's site whenever I get a chance. I do see value in it depending on what you are trying to achieve with a given dog in a given moment.
 
I'd love to use it in an agility class someday (when I have time...ha-ha). 
 
The biggest problem for me is the excitement factor I've seen the clicker generate. Some dogs are as nutty as addicts. Good luck to Emma Parson's and her use in this area. Personally, to me "click" does not equal "calm". 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Personally, to me "click" does not equal "calm". 

Good point right there!!!

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I actually enjoy reading about it and visit Karen Pryor's site whenever I get a chance. I do see value in it depending on what you are trying to achieve with a given dog in a given moment.

I'd love to use it in an agility class someday (when I have time...ha-ha). 

The biggest problem for me is the excitement factor I've seen the clicker generate. Some dogs are as nutty as addicts. Good luck to Emma Parson's and her use in this area. Personally, to me "click" does not equal "calm". 

 
It doesn't equal "shut down" either!  I like when my dog gets excited about training, and BTW, whatever they do when they are excited is also a behavior, thus, it can be modified)

ORIGINAL: mrv

There is no reason that a clicker could not be used for scent work.  You need to have good observation and timing skills because you need to mark the specific behaviors of the dog that indicate discrimination of a particular scent.  A task analysis approach that would break down the behaviors (which might include the behaviors associated with ground tracking or air scenting; casting to find the scent cone; establishing an indication of a find

Um, I'm sorry, but what does a clicker have to do with a dog learning a particular scent? If I'm teaching a dog to find a scent, I use that scent, when the dog finds it, he/she is rewarded with the object that has the scent.

In very novice dogs, the initial step of behaviors would likely be orientation (by body) to the desired scent.  One scent only.  Then working to get some people observable contact with that scent (like dropping the nose as an example).  Once that was well established.  Dog went out looked/smelled for the scent quickly and efficeintly,  add an additional scent as a distractor and start with a scent marker to match.   Just one possible scenario how one might go about establishing scent behaviors in a dog.  This behavior chain is in no way complete or exhaustive,,, just an attempt to describe how a complex set of natural behaviors could be shaped to develop scent discrimination.

Once a dog knows a scent and is rewarded only for that scent, that is the scent the dog will look for. I only need to introduce the scent, reward the dog for finding it, there's no need for me to "teach" the dog how to hunt, their noses do that. Once can can successfully continue to alert to that odor, I then teach patterns. I see no place where a clicker will help with this training.

BTW mrv, do you or have you ever done scent detection work?