Should dogs be bothered while eating?

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I readily agree that parents should take their responsibility more seriously.  But, since I can't force them to do so, I protect my dogs the  best I can and make sure that they aren't going to take an arm off an offending child.  Cuz, that's MY job.

 
  Yep, mine too!!! 
 

ORIGINAL: snownose
So, if they run into an on coming car will the car be blamed or the driver?

 
That's a BIT of a stretch, don't you think?  []

That's a BIT of a stretch, don't you think?

 
Nope, not really.........[8D]
 
I guess we are talking kids running at my dogs, I would think parents would keep their kids somewhat under check....running at dogs, running at traffic....what's the difference?
 
Oh, crap, I forgot about the ice-cream truck.......[]

ORIGINAL: labcrab
The fact is that MOST kids do not behave the way we'd like them to around our dogs - since we have no control over them, we must make sure we have control over our dogs

ORIGINAL: chuffy
YIKES!  That's enough to put me off being a parent except that it's too late now.....  I assume you meant other peoples kids!!!!!

Haha!  Yeah - OPK's.  My kids are not perfect - they know the rules of engagement with dogs, but every once in a while they meet one that is all wiggling and wagging and walking straight up to them and they skip the protocol.  Before I can even speak, they tell me "yeah, yeah, if the dog had bitten me, it would have been my fault."   They also feel totally free to instruct other kids on how to properly greet a dog! (I'm so PROUD [])   I guess my point is that my kids know the bloody rules and they don't even get it right all the time. 

ORIGINAL: labcrab 
I think it's incredibly naive and a disservice to the dog to expect others (particularly children) to behave as you'd wish!  

ORIGINAL: Chuffy
I agree - I don't trust other peoples kids one jot.  But that doesn't mean I expect my dogs to put up with all kinds of nonsense either.  I do my best to make sure they are bomb proof, but I never test that or expect them to tolerate rude or inconsiderate behaviour from anyone of any age.  Thankfully it seems they trust me in this regard and know that I will remove them from the situation if needs be.

I don't expect Slick to put up with nonsense, but sh1t happens.  TRUST ME, if one of those little brat friends of my sons, even THINKS about mishandling Slick - he'll be in a taxi home faster than you can blink.  And my son would be the one hailing it.  But this is not because I'm worried about Slick hurting the child - it's because I'm worried about the child hurting Slick! 

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Yes, except the mistake is NOT that they reached into the dog's bowl - the mistake is that they accepted resource guarding as acceptable behaviour. 

ORIGINAL: chuffy
With the food guarding, if you reach into your dogs bowl as part of the training process and he growls, what do you do? 

I'd come here and ask Anne!! haha.  It's never happened to me.  I hand fed Slick as a puppy, I've always held his bones for him to chew, I had the boys handfeeding him as well, and I guess I've always been lucky.  I've literally never had a dog that guarded and I believe at least some of that is due to handling.

Its actually a very good analogy in a way.  I think technically, the truck driver would be at fault.  I could be walking down the middle of the street with my headphones on and in a daydream and if a car hit me, it would still be the drivers fault.  Although in a way it would be my own darn fault for being so stupid.
 
So, say the truck is the dog, the owner is the driver and the idiot in the road is the stupid out if control child who knows nothing about animals and has no respect for them.  As the owner is the adult and intelligent species, its up to them to a) socialise the dog properly and b) see the kid coming and take preventative action.  So you could argue that it's their fault, same as with the truck driver - its up to him to learn to drive properly and watch out for hazards on the road.  Although in a way its the childs fault for being such a disrespectful brat.
 
Unfortunately, this falls down because the owner is not the one held ultimately accountable if the child gets their arm bitten off.  Perhaps that wouldnt be such a bad thing.  Its the dog who pays with his life, although in most cases the incident is not his fault.  Sad.  In many cases it really is like blaming an accident on the car involved and not the driver or the wally who stepped out in front of it.  (Occasionally thats true - car faulty for instance.  Or dog has something fundamentally wrong with him causing him to react adversely, like I don;t know a brain tumour, physical pain etc.  But you can take an analogy too far....)

Kids have gotten hit in the streets before, and the driver was never charged, only because the driver could not stop in time or he didn't see the child run out in the street.
 
I still think it is my job to keep brats away from my dogs, and I expect the parents to keep their brats away from my dogs.......[]

Thanks Chuffy, I get the analogy now - I wasn't putting it together before.  I obviously think that if a kid runs out in front of a truck - it's the kiddies fault. no question.  Same goes for a kid that charges a dog and gets bitten.  But analogy aside - don't we all agree on that point already? 
 

ORIGINAL: snownose
I still think it is my job to keep brats away from my dogs, and I expect the parents to keep their brats away from my dogs.......[]

 
Absolutely, but if you're reliant on one, or both of these to actually happen, all the time... well IMHO - that's just not going to work and your risk of something bad happening actually increases.  Look - I know what you mean, I feel like I'm forever herding brats in one direction or another - but that's just because they're annoying, not because they're in danger of getting bitten. 

Absolutely, but if you're reliant on one, or both of these to actually happen, all the time... well IMHO - that's just not going to work and your risk of something bad happening actually increases. Look - I know what you mean, I feel like I'm forever herding brats in one direction or another - but that's just because they're annoying, not because they're in danger of getting bitten.

 
Oh, don't get me wrong, a bit to a child is terrible.
Here is my situation. I have no children in my house, I deal with rescue dogs, and I have to make sure they are safe behind a large fence, when I go places I take the most care to keep everyone save.
 
I am sure you are a responsible parent, but too many times I see kids just running wild and the parents don't give a damn......that's where I come in as a safety buffer to keep them away.
 
I just wish that parents would take care and keep their kids safe as I have to with my dogs[]

Anyways, back to topic....  labcrab, could you explain what you would do if you were to put your hand in the dog's food bowl as part of process of training him to be ok around his food bowl and he growled at you? 
 
I don't have guardy dogs now.  I attribute it to me being laid back about it and them taking their cue from me.  If they were to suddenly growl at me I am not sure what I would do in that moment.  If I back off I reinforce the growl.  Ignore the warning signal and the response could escalate.... so what to do? 
 
I see this as a lose-lose situation and I also think that things like putting your hand in the bowl makes the situation more likely...... which is why I don't do it.  I could I'm sure.  But I don't, particularly not with young dogs or with ones that first come into my home.  However, it would be nice to know what I should do for the best (at that moment) should it ever ocurr.

Chuffy, in that scenario, you are no longer the packleader.....[][][]

I teach my dogs to not mind people around their food. When they were little, I'd sit next to them while they ate, and put my hands in the dish, take out a peice and hand  feed it to them, talk and pet them, whatever. Generally they look at me like, "What excatly are you doing?" But, it teaches them not to mind people with their food. I'd let little kids sometimes go up and pet them while they're eating, and they're perfectly fine.

But now, I let them have their space while they're eating, simply because it's nice not to pester them while they're eating, but not because I'm worried about anything happening. So if  I need to take anything from them, be it a bone, food, or whatever, I can take it with no problem.  They eat at certian spots in the kitchen, and while it only takes a minute or so for them to eat, people can be stepping over them or whatever.

Something I used to do, but don't do anymore, is not to allow them (well, specifically Cassidy, this was when she was younger) to gaurd against anything while they're eating. Like if the cats came up to the food, I'd make Cassidy be nice and even allow the cat right next to her dish. I thought this was good because I didn't want her being food aggressive at all. But then, when I got a second dog, I realized sometimes it's ok for them to guard their own food, against, say, another dog. When Mirelle was a little puppy, she learned to eat from her own dish and not try and eat Cassidy's. It's an important skill to learn, I think, because I don't want her thinking she can go up to any strange dog when they're eating. When Cassidy was an only dog, I didn't have to worry about her guarding toys, bones or anything, because she didnt' have to worry about another dog, and wouldn't guard against humans. But, after I had Mirelle a little while, I realized that it was ok for Cassidy (to a point, of course) to keep her own bones for herself. For example, if Mirelle is barking and Cassidy to annoy her and get her to play, and Cassidy snaps at Mirelle, I don't correct Cassidy. I guess that they have to learn to interact with each other right.

I don't agree there..... I think status has little to do with it in that scenario.  If a dogs got something and doesn't want to give it up, he'll defend it even from those "higher up", that's including the "alpha".  In most cases this is pre-empted and avoided by order at mealtimes - ie, strongest eats first, when he's had enough he walks away. 
 
Assuming I'm wrong though and your statement is true, I would assume a "leadership programme" would follow in no short order, but what to do at that moment?  How to react?  Avoid taking a risk and getting bit, or risk getting bitten to prove a point?

I don't agree there..... I think status has little to do with it in that scenario. If a dogs got something and doesn't want to give it up, he'll defend it even from those "higher up", that's including the "alpha". In most cases this is pre-empted and avoided by order at mealtimes - ie, strongest eats first, when he's had enough he walks away.

Assuming I'm wrong though and your statement is true, I would assume a "leadership programme" would follow in no short order, but what to do at that moment? How to react? Avoid taking a risk and getting bit, or risk getting bitten to prove a point?

 
Chuffy, my last post was a little joke actually......[]
 
But, if one has trained a dog not to guard an item, well , don't you think some kind of shift has taken place when all of a sudden the dog growls at the owner?
 
I personally would not back off, but I know my dogs well enough.

I don't think people always see it this way.  I think some may see it as your job to keep the dog from the kids, and if the kid does get around the dog....it had best not spook and piss off the parents.  Or act in a way the parents don't approve of.  Or animal control could come knocking.

This is the very reason I don't like kids around my dogs.  For some reason, it becomes my responsibility to supervise the kid and to keep it from poking my dogs eyes out..

 The kid is supposed to be able to do whatever it likes to the dog and the dog had better like it.

ORIGINAL: snownose

and I expect the parents to keep their brats away from my dogs.......[]

ORIGINAL: snownose
But, if one has trained a dog not to guard an item, well , don't you think some kind of shift has taken place when all of a sudden the dog growls at the owner?

1.  Having worked in a vet surgery and rescue centre, I can say quite a lot of the dogs I have seen with this problem were dogs trained to accept it as puppies and then began challenging it as they got older.  This doesn't necessarily mean the owners status has changed, merely that the pup has become confident enough to challenge them when he wants to hang on to something badly enough - its often mistaken for dominance, but I really think this is a mistake.

2.  Some dogs I have seen had this trait very early on as puppies and attempts to acclimitise them to it using methods often advised here (dropping food in the bowl, putting the hand in, petting etc) failed or made it worse.  I didn't believe it at first and thought the owners were not being truthful, but have since seen a 10 week old puppy being extremely guardy, so now I'm more inclined to believe them.

3.  That (quote) is assuming the dog has been taught not to guard an item... I've never taught any of the dogs not to guard the food bowl, so should I be surprised if they start?  And what is the best thing to do in that situation (at that moment)?

I can say quite a lot of the dogs I have seen with this problem were dogs trained to accept it as puppies and then began challenging it as they got older. This doesn't necessarily mean the owners status has changed, merely that the pup has become confident enough to challenge them when he wants to hang on to something badly enough - its often mistaken for dominance, but I really think this is a mistake.

 
I was not talking about puppies to adulthood, I figured one would keep testing the dog and keep training until they reach adulthood.
Well, I do.......but, who am I....[]
 
IMO the owner's status does change in the growing puppy's eyes, dog gets bigger and stronger, owner weaker, remember in dog's eyes. Owner has to re-establish leadership at every turn.
 
If I run into a little iffy situation I make a noise such as "Ah" or "Eh", with a sharp tone, and send the dog in a different direction. At that point I want to see submissive body language, then I call the dog back and make it lay down. This has worked for me, it might not work for everyone, depending on the dog.