Wild dog

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wild dog

    This is a hypothetical to everyone that frequents this section:  What would you do if you were working at a rescue and someone brought in an unsocialized dog, that had been living in the wild or on the streets.  The dog isn't aggressive but rather fearful, doesn't want to be handled, and would probably bite.  This can be any breed or mix of breeds, any size.  (it's somewhat of a hypothetical, remember?)

    How would you gain this dog's trust?  What would you do to manage the human-dog interaction so that the dog might possibly become adoptable?

    I have my own opinions on this one, but will not respond until tomorrow.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well i'd put a treat in front of him. Then put it in front of me. Then let him take it from my hand until he's comfortable. I'd also tell other people to do the same, until he learns people are good things.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd clock out and go home. I'm kidding! I would do what I always do, being the Doubting Thomas that I am--I'd give the dog a treat and think, Oh oh--here's trouble.
     
    [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd ignore it. I'd move around slowly and smoothly and talk gently in a soft and soothing voice to it without looking at it. I'd walk in and out of its enclosure or kennel space, talking and not making eye contact until the dog's curiosity got the better of it and it approached me. I'd let it sniff me, but I wouldn't touch it for a while yet. I'd wait until it was confident enough to approach me, then I'd touch it gently on the side and if it ran away, I'd leave. I'd keep up with that kind of thing until it worked out for itself that I wasn't to be feared. I'd drop in treats here and there, but I wouldn't shower the dog with treats.

    That's what I'd do. It would take a loooong time, but it would be worth it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    These are the dogs that I use "calming signals" with (See the book by Turid Rugaas).  I do not make eye contact, I go about my biz, and occasionally toss a treat (I make it something like roast beef, liver or cheese, not prepared treats).  I do not force the dog to come near me, nor do I attempt to touch, pat, etc.  I let the dog observe other dogs interacting with me in a happy way (they do learn from one another), and I keep my voice happy and light.  If I observe any bravery, such as coming forward or looking expectantly for the treat, I quietly reward it.  If the dog doesn't seem frightened of the noise made by a clicker (I start with an i-click, or muffle a box clicker with a cloth), then I might start C/T to charge the clicker, even if I still have to toss the treat from quite a distance.  That gives me a way to communicate that the dog can understand.
    These dogs certainly aren't easy, but one of my students currently has one, and has managed to make him feel comfy enough to  hang out at the barn where she keeps her horse.  He is now familiar with everyone there, and lets them pat.  But, it took quite some time.  He will never be a confident dog, but she is lucky in that he is not quick to resort to fear biting - way more likely to run away to her and wait for help.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Not hypothetical for me. I've rehabbed many near ferals. Melissa is correct, ignoring is the best policy. What a feral/near feral/fearful dog needs is to develop a language of intereaction with you, and a set of expectations to hang his hat on, before he can be functional in his new environment.

    Total isolation is not the best policy. I prefer using a crate because then I won't be entering the dog's space to care for it. The dog will wear a chain tab and a flat collar with a martingale - I used to have several of these with the quickclose part made of chain - these close faster for the dog's safety. I don't even remember where to get these - now I use premier's, whch I can find anywhere. The dog will be in a large wire crate where it can observe everything, but out of the way. I may start with a cover on the crate, depending on how freaked out the dog is.

    To begin with, these dogs will typically react to everything. I call this "seeing ghosts". I set up a Peace and Quiet routine, and although I do give the dog plenty of opportunity to come out of the crate on its own, about half will require dragging out of the crate the first couple times. This is not as aversive as you might think - remember most of these dogs already have experience getting snared, dragged by the collar here and there, held down and muzzled at vet's offices and shelters. Being "encouraged" with the leash is not so bad. Quick band-aid.

    Once out, I'll proceed to the door. Usually, the dog will start seeing ghosts - Border Collies tend to turn into mindless whirling dervishes at this point. I freeze until the brain turns back on again. The first time outside, there may be half a dozen ghost sightings. The next time, half that many. The number goes up and down as the dog is able to assimilate what is normal, then spot things that are out of place, and gradually learn that the environment in general isn't going to kill him, and by the end of the Peace and Quiet phase, that I can be trusted to cue him on what is noteworthy.

    Peace and Quiet consists of walks interspersed with crate time. It's crate rest for the brain. By the end of it, he'll have expectations to fall back on about what I expect, his environment, and might even start seeking interaction with me. I might gently praise for eye contact but we don't do anything else during this time.

    For the rest of the dog's stay, the Peace and Quiet schedule will remain as a framework, but now more training will start. During leash walks, I'll start changing directions, using the dog's name to build a language of interaction between us. I'll use some corrections - a sharp name call or a refusal to go further, a buzzer noise. If the dog is interested in treats, I'll start using the clicker - but it's rare that a truly feral dog is ready for that level of interaction at this point yet. I expect that more in simply undersocialized dogs. What I'm looking for in a dog at this phase is for the dog to choose to be with me, and to recognize and respond to his name.

    We'll do a few days of heightened interaction, then progress to increased formal training. I'll build on the dog's desire to be with me, and for Border Collies things move fast at this point. All the obedience basics are put on, the dog will have his first car ride to the pet store, the dog may see stock for the first time - or for the first time here. This is still overlaid on the Peace and Quiet schedule. By the end of this period, I want to be able to turn the dog loose with 100% recall with distractions, and have some kind of training framework, depending on the destiny of the dog (I'll focus more on clicker for pet and sport dogs, and make sure working dogs are familiar with a more pressure-based approach).

    I also want to see the dog seeking attention from other people, too. Normally this falls into place pretty quickly, up to a point - truly feral dogs never really learn to trust strangers without a long interactive period - but all dogs must demonstrate a "coping" mechanism that is appropriate - quiet examination from a safe distance is satisfactory at a minimum. I want the dog to get past avoidance to interaction, even if it's just curiosity.

    Usually, depending on what kind of environment the dog came from before, by this time the dog will not seem "abnormal" to the casual observer unless attempts are made to interact. I make sure the dog can retreat from rude people, but I deal with interaction with people just like I did earlier ghost sightings. The dog gets no interaction with me as long as he's acting inappropriately, which now will signal he's on the wrong track. When I see signs that the brain has turned on, I'll use whatever signal we've worked out at that point that I'm pleased.

    Most dogs that are simply undersocialized only need one or two reps of this and then they cn proceed to the next level, "Strangers have neat stuff!" I will hand out balls or treats to willing victims and turn the dog loose. the stranger has instructions on looking particularly inviting, while the dog, I hope, expands his comfort zone.

    Now about three weeks has gone by and I'll usually see some kind of dramatic personality reversal. I deal with that, and then after that the training is both more normal, and also too customized to address in a single post.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I want to thank everyone for their posts.  I am somewhat in agreement with all of them.  Now for me to unveil the reasoning behind this thread. 
     
    If man did indeed domesticate the wolf, he couldn't have done it using training methods which seem to have come back into vogue in these past few months/years.  Man would have had to use a reward system to teach these wolves or feral dogs that a) I'm ok, you can trust me and b) I want you around, you help me out at times.  If primitive man had used a forced obedience system of training, most likely the "wolf" or feral dog would have just left and gone about it's own way.  So man must have convinced "wolf" that it was ok to be around. 
     
    How would I personally handle the situation?  I'd make excuses to walk by the enclosure as often as possible.  Every time I walk by I'd toss a piece of roast beef or other high value treat inside, never looking in the direction or speaking to the dog.  After a few days of this, the dog would be looking forward to hearing my footsteps and probably would be curious and approach the opening.  At this point I'd keep up with the tossing of roast beef, but begin speaking gently to the dog.  Again I'd never make eye contact, nor directly approach the animal.  After a few days of the dog approaching the enclosure gate, I'd begin to tarry and wait near that opening, again tossing roast beef, but lingering in that area just a bit longer, usually with my back towards the dog.  (That way he could come up to me and sniff without a possibility of eye contact.)  Eventually I would work up to where I could just sit outside the enclosure, speaking soothingly to the dog and having the dog come up to me.  Once this takes place I may attempt to gain entrance.  And again it's baby steps, never invading the dog's space, letting the dog come to me.  Perhaps even engaging in a "howl" session with the dog.  The main thing is that the dogs interactions with me are never pushy, and always rewarding.  I think that the dog would at least begin to trust me, and respect me if I follow these steps.  Eventually the dog might even become companion material-as long as the dog is continually given the respect and rewards as they are earned.
     
    Brookcove: wow, that's an amazing amount of work.  I can't imagine how rewarding that hard work is for you, nor how draining.  I think you're an official Hero of mine now!  (three cheers!)
     
    The only feral animal I have ever tamed was a feral kitten that wouldn't allow himself to be touched without drawing blood in copious amounts from those who touched him.  I followed the steps above and he ended up adopting me and I took him home.  He still wouldn't allow other people to handle him the way I could, but to me the rewards were tremendous:  as others were calling him "an spca special" meaning he was destined to never be homed.  Oh and by the way, I'm not even a cat person. 

    I think that kindness and generosity are more easily understood by the animal kingdom than their opposites.  Just my thoughts on the matter.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I know of a feral domestic. She is a cattledog, probably BC or BC mix. She lives in a stand of trees behind a car dealership and across a field from an electrical supply house. On this little street where the supply house is, most of the businesses leave food out for her. But she is feral. She won't come near for treats. You have to leave them and walk far enough away. Since the Sherman Animal Shelter is a kill-shelter, she's survived longer on her own and has learned to avoid traffic, so far. She can outrun most dogs thta just get loose, once in a while. And she avoids contact, therefore avoiding trouble.
     
    It has been noted that a number of wolf observations, and therefore, some training techniques were developed by watching wolves in captivity. But wolves in captivity exhibit different behavior than wolves in the wild. Dogs can also exhibit different behavior than they would in the wild.
     
    What I can see, especially from Brookcove's post is that while the food is to offer a good connection with the environment, she is still controlling the environment. providing a dog a safe place, limit exposure to stimuli repeated until they no longer cause a reaction, etc. And she has to use a certain collar. That is, the dog doesn't learn how to walk in leash and collar by eating roast beef. He/she learns, after taming a bit, how to walk with that equipment by walking with that equipment. Not necessarily aversive, but physical, nevertheless. Given enough time, the dog may decide to walk alongside her without a leash ever being used but it would do so for no other, at least not right away. Or it may not. It could eat the roast beef and run off, just like the feral BC in Sherman. That loose BC acts like a wolf, shying away from human contact but hanging around in a good "hunting and foraging" place.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Kinda off-topic, but has anyone heard of Stray Rescue of St. Louis? VERY inspiring! The founder rescues feral strays and starts by feeding them in the streets where they live to get their trust before they catch or trap them for rescue and fostering.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ed,
    interesting post and not uncommon in rescue. A few months back my grey rescue took in a coyote dog (a greyhound that was bred to hunt coyotes). He was found thanks to the efforts of many kind people wandering the streets and freeways about 2 hours north of San diego. He ended up being caught but was taken to a kill rescue. During his capture it is believed he bit one of the animal control folks out of fear. He is completely NOT socialized, is afraid of humans, has never been pet, given love, hand fed or even been on a leash. Every single thing is overwhelming to this dog.

    I was at the rescue volunteering a few hours after he came in and trying to coax him out of his crate to potty was a huge challange. I did use liverwurst to entice him and eventually after tossing him a few into his crate he ate them (the poor thing was all skin and bones and was in horrible shape). Later in the night the liverwurst was enough to get him to go outside to potty and after he did his business i would sit quietly in the middle of the turout area and ignore him. it only took a few times of that before he would approach me from behind for a sniff...and the a few more times and some more liverwurst to allow me to pet him.

    the last few times i worked with him he would allow me to open his crate door and sit on the edge of it with him and he will even eat out of my hand but he is not that way with more than just myself and the owners of the rescue who are with him 24/7.

    In order to get him out of his crate for a long time we would let a female dog out and then open up his crate and he would follow her outside. He loves other dogs and he is use to hunting and being part of a greyhound pack, but humans have obviously not been kind to him and he will react to that fear. He has come a very long way, but will need the most extrodinary individual to ever be able to adopt him.

    Thanks for starting this thread and for everyones posts...i have learned a lot here!
    • Gold Top Dog
    I apologize for being so facetious. I think I'm just getting excited because my post-op dog is recovering and my home construction job is done. Didn't mean to be such a goof!
     
    Anyway, I have a pretty unsocialized dog and that's why I said I'd (basically) run the other way. I appreciate what you've said, Anne, because slowly I've been doing those things for him (calming signals, strengthening the bond between us, joining an awesome shy-dog group, using the clicker as a way to communicate, etc) and things are changing, albeit it's slow and there's always more work involved. 
     
    I don't think Murphy will ever be a confident and comfortable dog, either, and he'll always be my dog (very dependent on me) for as long as I have him, but so long as everyone is safe (including Murphy) then I 'm working to truly and fully accept what I have in him and with him, and not what I wish he was--does that make sense?
     
    It's like having a dog with a disability--or, rather, it is having a dog with a disability and it's a LOT of work, which is why I said that I might run the other way. Not sure I'll take in another shy dog, but I am quite attached to Murphy and I really do like him.
     
    I understand, Ed, about the cat. I do.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Let me add one more light-hearted comment here. On my shy-dog board, we had a funny list (wry humor, but hey, we're all in the same boat there) about "shy-dog bumper stickers" and my most favorite is this one, which I would like to put on a vest (in BIG font, of course) for Murphy to wear when we're out in public:
     
    If you can read this, you're too close
     
    That would help us all out tremendously.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: nfowler

    Let me add one more light-hearted comment here. On my shy-dog board, we had a funny list (wry humor, but hey, we're all in the same boat there) about "shy-dog bumper stickers" and my most favorite is this one, which I would like to put on a vest (in BIG font, of course) for Murphy to wear when we're out in public:

    If you can read this, you're too close
     
    That would help us all out tremendously.

     
    That's the coolest thing ever!  What a great idea!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nancy- what you said makes perfect sense and Murphy is lucky to have you. I am on my second shy (or spook is more accurate) dog and my third dog with issues. You may be surprised after experiencing life with murphy how you will gravitate towrd the problem dogs in the future. There is no greater reward than watching that dog come out of its shell and life the happiest life possible.

    All of my greyhounds have had multiple previous owners and for 3 of them the bouncing was due to their issues. I know that I will never be able to fully trust JJ with strange dogs, strange people or with children. I know that I can't bring Prudence into strange or crowded environments with out her trying to bolt and shake and quiver. I know that every stranger that comes into my house will have to go through a long introduction period with my dogs that will require calmness and lots of treats and anyone not willing to go through that effort is not welcome in my home...all that is worth it to me and I don't think I will ever have greys without issues because to watch then grow is the most beautiful experience in the world.

    You are obviously going to great lengths to help Murphy and it sounds to me like he is responding to your love, care and patience...I think in the end you will be well rewarded for your efforts!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Actually, ron, shy rescues can be taught to walk nicely by their owners without collars or leads at first.  To do it, we use targeting.  We still manipulate the environment, but by the time the dog has to go into a more distracting environment with his leash and collar on, he at least understands what is expected when the owner says "target" or "let's go".  He knows he is supposed to target on the owner's left hand or left leg, and he gets his reward.  Makes it less anxiety-producing when the collar and lead finally go on.