Wild dog

Ok, then if we use these techniques with wild, feral or unsocialized dogs and these techniques work, then do they apply to domesticated, tame, socialized dogs as well?  Or am I making too many connections?
 
edited to correct syntax and sentence structure.  []

The special collar is just because BCs are agile enough to slip a normal collar and it allows me to back off and let him find his own comfort zone without being afraid the dog will slip the collar and run away. Otherwise, if you have a dog doing somersaults and figure eights, you've got to do some fancy footwork to keep the collar from going right over the ears or tightening to a dangerous point. I don't want to do anything startling like fancy footwork - or risk tripping and falling right on the dog. ETA: I forgot to mention that I change to a normal collar once the dog has stopped reacting and is choosing to make eye contact regularly.

I do NO training during Peace and Quiet. If the dog wants to forge on the leash, that's a choice it's allowed to make. We'll deal with it later. One thing at a time.

The leash and the limited environment are to reduce the dog's choices and keep things simple. Otherwise a feral dog will choose to be as far from you as possible, forever. Truly feral dogs won't even take food if you are around. And forcing yourself into the dog's space is highly aversive - I want the dog to learn, first and foremost, that he can choose to come to me. Kind of like teaching the last contact first on the dogwalk. The first lesson a feral or undersocialized dog, or a puppy for that matter, learns, is the one that will stick with them come hell or high water.

I don't ever want to get into a situation during this crucial first week or so, where I'm chasing the dog, spending a lot of time begging him to do something, or even touching the dog. I'm just the Person Who Thinks Scary Things Aren't Scary and Nothing Scary Ever Happens When We Are Together.

Remember we're talking rescues that need to be rehabbed as quickly as possible. We don't have years and years to mess around, otherwise maybe I could take a little less extreme method. But I've rehomed over 100 dogs and only had two come back to me - this process is part of the reason, I believe - dogs that go through this settle down quickly and happily in their new homes. Given a chance to develop normal adaptive techniques, most dogs are actually more resilient than I think they are often assumed to be, these days. You wouldn't believe how many BCs I've rehabbed that were raised like veal calves [] - but they come out of it OK, generally.

Ed, there's a couple main theories on dog domestication. I think the Coppingers ascribe to the "garbage eating" adaptation theory, where some wolf packs started following human hunters around because they realized they often left goodies behind so they didn't have to pack them home. The other one (and this may be the Coppingers thoery, I may have them confused) posits that humans started raising orphaned cubs and then found them useful on the hunt, as watch animals, pack animals, etc. I suspect there was some combination of this, plus normal human curiosity "Let's see what happens if . . ." or even competition:

"I bet you can't get that wolf cub to eat out of your hand."
"I bet I can!"

I can't see anyone really deliberately taming wolves as an end in itself - life was just too harsh and short to sit around gradually winning the trust of an animal, especially since they couldn't forsee how useful it would be, as dogs were the first animal domesticated. Consider especially that wolves and humans probably had very similiar lifespans during this time.

I love your posts, Becca; you often seem to be thinking along the same lines as me, but your experiences that are so different from mine really add deapth to my understanding of what might be going on. There's nothing like gathering examples and comparing and contrasting. []

I've never had to deal with a shy dog, but I've halter trained cattle, some only just taken from the fields after 9 months with their mothers, and of course, there's the hare. The hare I raised from babyhood, so in some ways it was easier, but he's by far the wildest and flightiest creature I've ever come across and I often have to 'retame' him. He's taught me a lot about what a wild and frightened animal needs to relax. I find that routine is incredibly important to him. If his routine is disrupted in the slightest, he's much more easily upset. Do those of you who have rehabbed shy dogs find the same? Whenever my hare gets himself upset, I cling to routine and very predictable behaviour. He seems to know me most by my behaviour patterns, and it seems to comfort him to see and hear me moving around and doing things the way I've done them since he was a baby.

My experience with field work on wild animals has taught me to ignore them if I want to watch them. I've never failed to spook a wild animal by locking eyes with them, accidentally or otherwise. They take comfort in being ignored. When I was trying to find bird nests, I often used to make no effort to conceal myself, and instead, try to make it obvious that I was only interested in settling down and nibbling on foliage. [] Tiny, wary birds on their last nests for the season seemed willing to ignore that when any other attempts at concealment or nonchalance failed. I always think, the moment you pay attention to an animal, they're on the alert because anything interested in them is probably a threat in a wild habitat.

To answer Xerxes, the techniques do work on normal dogs and non-social dogs, although the latter take more time for obvious reasons.  In a shelter environment or with a rescue that must be rehabbed quickly (That usually only happens in no kill shelters that have made an error and taken a non-social dog in, or in rescue.  The kill shelters don't have the time to keep a cage tied up for that long.) Rebecca's suggestions about collar and lead are appropriate.  But, if you are working with a dog in a safe indoor or securely fenced outdoor environment, you can work free.  The nice thing about clicker training, either in or out of the shelter environment, is that you don't initially have to touch the dog, and can still reward any attempts the dog makes to come closer.  All the while, he's learning that when he does, he gets what he wants/needs.  When you think about it, it's much like what our ancestors must have had to do to attract wolves to the campfire.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

To answer Xerxes, the techniques do work on normal dogs and non-social dogs, although the latter take more time for obvious reasons.  In a shelter environment or with a rescue that must be rehabbed quickly (That usually only happens in no kill shelters that have made an error and taken a non-social dog in, or in rescue.  The kill shelters don't have the time to keep a cage tied up for that long.) Rebecca's suggestions about collar and lead are appropriate.  But, if you are working with a dog in a safe indoor or securely fenced outdoor environment, you can work free.  The nice thing about clicker training, either in or out of the shelter environment, is that you don't initially have to touch the dog, and can still reward any attempts the dog makes to come closer.  All the while, he's learning that when he does, he gets what he wants/needs.  When you think about it, it's much like what our ancestors must have had to do to attract wolves to the campfire.

That's precisely my point Anne. 

If it's possible to use kindness to domesticate or tame down a wild animal without use of submission and the "D-word" then anything and everything is possible with already domesticated animals using the same techniques.  But I'm preaching to the choir-as certain devotees haven't chimed in a word, which was my original hope.

Of course you're preaching to the choir--the other shy-dog group I belong to specifially says it doesn't "do" d-word and s-word types of fear/unsocialized dog rehabs. And trust me, Murphy is a lark dog compared to some of them there. He's not bad at all.
 
To me, of course, there is SO much to be done. And the best method for me has been the clicker. Target training has been the second best thing. (There's a great article about it in Whole Dog Journal this month.) I just read of an example of taking a dog through a scary situation (like a garbage can that just fell over as you are ready to pass it) through target work. When Murphy is targeting something, all of his fears take a break.
 
And, for what it's worth, not touching Murphy is the best thing for him. I will regret forever that I wasted precious bonding time in a CM-like class where it was all about standing up straight, staring them in the eye, and showing my dog my "leader energy" and then requiring him to submit to it (whatever that all means, and no, I won't bother you all with the tired explanations you've all heard already.) I will forever regret forcing him into a Down by pulling his leash (on a choke collar, no less) around my shoe, pulling his head to the ground and wondeirng why he didn't just go down already so we could get over this part in class. Can you imagine his fear? He had no clue what his choices were and that boy of mine was going to stand his ground no matter what. He would not go Down. I wish I'd walked out then. I wish I'd walked out when I saw his reaction to the other dogs. Yep--like Anne said, he was watching and taking it all in, and then he'd sit and shake next to me, more so when it became our turn to show our leader/follower energy. It was awful. And even worse, it was a setback--or a roadblock--to doing what we do now.
 
I love watching him think about it when I ask him to do something now. I love seeing his mind work. And I love that he can choose and, really, it's no big deal if he doesn't do it (I always win somehow, but he doesn't need to know). I don't have to "gear up" to use force with him. I just say, "eh eh" and we try the second step toward my goal, and it usually works then. (It usually works the first time, now.)
 
I think the part I totally understand now is what you said, Ed, about your cat. Unsocialized animals really don't enjoy being touched and Murphy is no different. He is happier when nobody is touching him and he has some space around him and to honor where he's at right now in his journey, I only touch him for positive things, and I don't do it a lot yet. Someday, perhaps, but that's not the biggest thing on my list, so, for now, all things in perspective, we focus on what we need to focus on for today.
 
Sorry to ramble--I agree with everyone here and I LOVE the suggestions from Anne and Becca. Wonderfully done, as always.
 
What a great thread--thanks for starting it, Xerxes.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

If it's possible to use kindness to domesticate or tame down a wild animal without use of submission and the "D-word" then anything and everything is possible with already domesticated animals using the same techniques.  But I'm preaching to the choir-as certain devotees haven't chimed in a word, which was my original hope.

 
It would be very interesting to see a more "pro d-word techniques" person take on this scenario.  As they are not here, I could step in, if you like.
 
To start with, a wild/feral/undersocialised animal is, first and foremost afraid - if not downright terrified - of the people who are trying to work with it.  Often, problem pets are not perceived as being afraid (and if they are, then not usually to that extent), they are perceived as having seen a Situations Vacant sign in the window and "Competent Alpha Required - Immediate Start Essential For Pack Survival, No Experience Necessary".  They might be a bit scared too of course.  If I walked into a managers job tomorrow I'd be bricking myself.  But you could argue that it is a little different.  I'm probably way off track here....

I have never been in a situation as such, therefor this type of case would belong with a professional.
It appears to me that brookcove/Becca has successfully done that type of rehab, and it seems to have worked.
 
 

Ooooh, just realised, in the book "The Dog Listener" the lady does mention a very undersocialised, terribly abused and frankly petrified JRT which she took in and rehabbed.  She is one who tends to address every problem pet in a similar way, "the dog feels you are not a competent leader, you have to prove you are so that he will trust and respect you and training can take place - at the moment he is taking on the role."  Or to put it another way, the "d-word" is flashed around a heck of a lot. 
 
However, she doesn't seem to think that giving the dog "leader energy" or what have you has to be about eye contact and a dominant attitude.  A lot of what she describes in rehabbing the JRT sound a lot like the calming signals described earlier.  The dog was given the time and space he needed to learn to trust her at his own pace.  I don't recall reading anywhere in the book that he was ever flooded, rolled, pinned, "stared out" body-blocked or "corrected".  The d-word theory was the same, but the techniques sprung from it wholly different from what you would usually associate with the term "dominate the dog". 

ORIGINAL: snownose

I have never been in a situation as such, therefor this type of case would belong with a professional.
It appears to me that brookcove/Becca has successfully done that type of rehab, and it seems to have worked.

Just for the record, what is your definition of a "professional"?  Rehabbers are often shelter workers, volunteers, rescuers, trainers, ACO's,  & vets, too. 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

It would be very interesting to see a more "pro d-word techniques" person take on this scenario.  As they are not here, I could step in, if you like.

To start with, a wild/feral/undersocialised animal is, first and foremost afraid - if not downright terrified - of the people who are trying to work with it.  Often, problem pets are not perceived as being afraid (and if they are, then not usually to that extent), they are perceived as having seen a Situations Vacant sign in the window and "Competent Alpha Required - Immediate Start Essential For Pack Survival, No Experience Necessary".  They might be a bit scared too of course.  If I walked into a managers job tomorrow I'd be bricking myself.  But you could argue that it is a little different.  I'm probably way off track here....

You have a good point.  And yes, those dogs that have taken that leadership position do need basic structure in their lives and to feel that their "leader" is competent.  Competency as a leader does not always involve traditional roles of d0mination/ submission.  An effective leader, as Becca stated so well, contols the environment, the resources and provides a basic unaltering structure that supplies all the needs of the dog yet sets boundries as well. 

A feral dog is truly afraid, the hardest part of getting them to trust a human has to be getting them out of "fight or flight" mode and try to get them into another drive.  My own opinion is that this can be done without touching the dog, or offering physical correction of any type. 

I just think it's funny that we humans usually resort to force of some kind in order to solve our myriad of problems.

Just for the record, what is your definition of a "professional"? Rehabbers are often shelter workers, volunteers, rescuers, trainers, ACO's, & vets, too.

 
A person who knows what he/she is doing.
The keyword "Knows", not "Thinks".