Do You Disagree With CM?

    • Gold Top Dog
    if their dog is suffering from ACL, HD, "stubborness," or "laziness?" If they read CM's book (I did), then they'll never know that their dog is hurting and not lazy

     
    This one is very important.  Goes along my way of thinking.   You need to know your own animal and you need to have excellent vet care, understand your breed and what is possible there.  There are clues. 
     
    If you blindly have faith in someone preaching on a soap box,  and you are listening along with the huge crowd,  ...you may not truly be doing what is good for your dog and situation. Just satiating that desire to understand, yet being fooled.
     
    Staying with the ones who loved learning about dogs and whom actually put the money and effort into course study at an accredited school makes far more sense.  There is less of a chance you will be lead wrong.  Credability, and credentials...go together well.
     
    I prefer to visit a doctor, pay for that....not the secretary, who "knows" so much because she's heard and seen it all!
    • Gold Top Dog
    And, while I'm at it, I wanted to say that I really think CM is probably quite personable. He is great with the owners, very kind, very much a listener, and he's great with his kids--you can certainly see he loves them.
     
    But when push comes to shove, it's rather commonsense that dogs need to be exercised (so do we), that they need to work/train/think a bit (so do we), and that they need affection or to "belong" with their family (so do we). Their bodies are so much like ours anyway (learned a LOT about this when my dog went through her total hip replacement recently), and it makes sense that we all need to be doing more.
     
    But you know what I see that I like best about CM? How happy his kids are to be skateboarding and biking with him--how happy they are to be outside with him. I don't really see that in the dogs and quite honestly because the dogs aren't as charasmatic as the kids, or as CM himself, I don't even notice the dogs. That's sad. But, I have watched the kids and owners and I have to say my focus is there. 
     
    I actually think that's more the point of those shows anyway.
     
    As much as we like the idea of being the big alpha of the house (there is a great New Yorker cartoon about that--the man is eating a big drumstick saying, "Man, I love being the Alpha" and the dog is begging so hard for a bite), I'm not sure half the people can get their dogs to actually do more than stop dead in their tracks mid-action. And maybe that's fine for some people. Hey, it takes all kinds . . .
     
    Still, being able to say "go to your place" and being able to do a quick "watch me" is where it's at. Actual, trained actions that are trustworthy is where it's at.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Trevell

    He exercises his own dogs for up to 6 hours everyday.  I've never heard him suggest this to anyone else.  I think I've heard him say minimum 45 minutes which really is the least you should do for most dogs.      

     
    Agree 100%, if you dont want or cant exersice your dogs that much thats fine, he can because he has the time and maybe his dogs are in the necessary shape to do so, but he always said that with at least 45 min is enough [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think it would be great if this thread would not devolve into bickering about whether Cesar does or doesn't say this or that... there are ;plenty  of other threads where that is the MO. I believe the original purpose of this one was for dissenters to explain why they disagree with CM and perhaps who/what the prefer instead, and I would love for it to stay that way. Just my two cents.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Hmm, well, I can't comment on the "electrician" example except to say that there's a big difference...lol. You're working with a LIVE being, and in working with a live being, you should have a great, deep understanding of that being's behaviour, instincts, signals, and language.
     
    The fact is, people who have great experience in these areas do not get bitten. At least not more than once or twice, and ANY trainer who has gotten bitten, for any reason, will admit openly it is solely because they moved too fast. They were not paying close enough attention to the dog. That's all there is to it.  Because they know what they are doing, they know not to approach a dog if it's not safe. They know how to use their own body language to indicate a safe situation. It's not a "slip of the wrist and I touched an electric wire".
     
    And I have to admit, I wholeheartedly agree that you can train a dog solely on P+ or R- (although the two often go hand in hand). There's no question those methods can be effective, they are. The question for me lies in - do I really want to interact with my dogs that way? Knowing what I know about canid behaviour and canid learning, there are just waaay too many loopholes to worry about doing it "right".
     
    Darn, I jerked the choke chain 4 seconds too late, now the dog hates children. Darn, I squirted the dog, and now he's terrified of hoses, running water, and water guns. Darn, I set mouse traps under newspaper on the couch, now he's terrified of the living room, or he's terrified of loud noises. The point is, corrections and P+/R- in training leave open way too much room for unwanted consequences. And the fact lies in that once we do it, it's too late to say "Oops".
     
    It was once said that in order for punishment to truly be truly effective, it had to be
    a) immediate - easy enough
    b) harsh enough so that you only had to use it once, twice at the most. Any more than that is ineffective punishment (the case of the dog who is immune to the hardest of jerks from a choke collar, because the owner started out very gently, and got increasingly harder, till the dog stopped paying attention to it altogether, as an example). And in order for a person to only have to do it once or twice, it would have to be so extreme, that it would be considered cruel and inhumane.
     
    However, you can also train a dog on solely R+ and P- (and extinction). And you know the worst thing that can happen? You can accidentally give your dog too many treats. You can accidentally reward something you didn't want to. There is NO risk in the relationship with your dog, or the dog's well being.
     
    I don't want to use a way that might or might not work, and that runs a risk of hurting my relationship with my dogs. Because I know that dogs do not ever need "corrections" in order to be a happy, healthy animal, I choose not to use them in my life, and especially not in my training program.
     
    My dogs do not have the word "no" in any part of their human-word base. If you said it to them it'd be no different than saying "banana" or "mailbox". To me it just doesn't make sense. "No" does not teach the dog what it should do. For most people, "no" takes on some or all of the following:
    a) get off me
    b) get off the cat
    c) don't jump on the bed
    d) don't bark
    e) don't lick me
    f) (insert reason here).
     
    "No" takes on so many forms I don't know how the dog can possibly learn what it means, because people use it as the all-knowing word, expecting their dog to know what "no" means in that situation. Would you ask your dog to "sit" in one situation, and then expect it to lay down when you say "sit" in another? It does not in any way teach the dog what it SHOULD do instead, and that is the basis of effective learning. Instead, one would teach Off, Quiet, Leave It, Get Your Toy, Place, etc, things the dog can actually DO, and things the dog can and will understand as different cues. I highly prefer to teach the dog what I want it to do INSTEAD of what it's doing now, not what I don't want it to do.
     
    Kim MacMillan
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would think that most of the dogs residing in homes are already adjusted and fit well into their family lives.

     
    unfortunately, the stats don't support this statement-- very few dogs are lucky enough to reside in the same home from puppyhood through to natural death. Many more end up exiled to the yard, kennel, or a chain due to behavioral problems.
    • Gold Top Dog
    mudpuppy, I'd be really curious, do we have any stats on what percentage of dogs actually are lucky enough to stay in one home their entire lives? That would be some amazing ammo against BYBs who always claim that they've already found "permanent loving homes" for their pimped out puppies.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would think that most of the dogs residing in homes are already adjusted and fit well into their family lives.

     
    Well, I would have assumed that too.  I am curious about that statistic as well.
     
    All dogs in my family stayed with my family.  We never gave one up, did think about it 1x  however, but could not follow through with that.  We adapted / took different stance and made it work.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I stand corrected on how much each dog gets exercised.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Hmm, well, I can't comment on the "electrician" example except to say that there's a big difference...lol. You're working with a LIVE being, and in working with a live being, you should have a great, deep understanding of that being's behaviour, instincts, signals, and language.

     
    I posted that to show that some things have an inherent danger and that it can happen. Anyone dealing with dogs, including ACO's has that danger to watch out for, whether or not it happens to a majority of dog professionals.
     
    I also posted it in support of what spencer was saying and perhaps that's why you took exception to it. And we're all welcome to our opinion, even if you're opinion is that my opinion is not credible or germain.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Kim, maybe I can just go take a nap and you can keep on posting for me.
    [sm=wink2.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I will add my impressions of CM. I think there are some inconsistancies to his philosophy.  He says not to treat dogs like humans, but we are to walk them in human form.  Such as side by side with us, head and neck up, lock step even. If not, then yank corrections are applied.

    This is just my own experience with my own 12 year old husky/shepard mix. I am not a professional. Now yank all you want, Zeus doesn't give a damn, as long as he is going forward. If I want to inflict misery on Zeus for pulling (and trust me, he still tries me occassionally) I either stop and stand still, turn the opposite direction and head back from whence I came, or  lead him in circles for a minute or two.   But...he is a very forward driven dog.

    Also while walking, he does walk side by side now and then, but his true "dog form" is nose to the ground.  He likes to walk ahead and then run back to me to see what I am doing, or he is behind me, then he runs to catch up.

    Also, I am convinced that if anyone tried an alpha roll on Zeus, he would fight to the death, and probably destroy somebody in the process.  So, I am wondering how many dogs have been put down due to this new fad..

    And also, if you check the place where he puts the lead around the dog's neck, it would be the same as the area where a person's adam apple is. So, to say it isn't hurting the dog is like saying hanging from a tree with a noose around your neck doesn't hurt a person.

    The guy is not all bad, don't get me wrong.  But, it is these 3 principles that the people who like him so well are constantly parroting.

    Also, I get the impression that he is a bit misunderstood sometimes.  Probably due to the show's sound bites.  One of them is discipline. One day he was working with a little mutt that went crazy when mail came through the mail slot (why the owners just didn't put up a mail box outside is beyond me)  Anyway, afterward the dog let the mail come in and Ceasar was so proud of him.  Going on and on about how the dog was holding himself back. And you could tell that the dog was really trying to keep himself under control.  That was an aha! moment...the dog was disciplining himself.

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    I would think that most of the dogs residing in homes are already adjusted and fit well into their family lives.


    unfortunately, the stats don't support this statement-- very few dogs are lucky enough to reside in the same home from puppyhood through to natural . Many more end up exiled to the yard, kennel, or a chain due to behavioral problems.


    Hmm out of all of our dogs, we re-homed two.  One due to allergies, and the second because he needed more stimulation:  He was super happy but never quite hit it off with our resident dog, who never hit it off with him either.  He went to a home with 3 young s and never looked back.  In fact I think of our home as a way-station for his proper home.

    So two out of 11, a bit less than 10%.  That's still not most.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, I'm happy to say that, while I've rejected a couple of dogs at the intro phase, once adopted, no dog has ever left this house until their death.  For some, thankfully, that was a wonderfully long time.  But, in those years that my dogs were enjoying a forever home with me, many others were discarded (even if to a good home).  To a dog, expulsion from the pack is traumatic, the equivalent to "I'm alone - alone means death".  Thankfully, they have a good capacity to develop ties to a new pack, because it's a hard-wired survival skill. 
    Reasons that dogs are dumped vary, but some of the ones I hate the most:
    Moving (would you leave your kids behind?)
    Having a baby (no time for the dog - what'll you do if your kid needs special care?)
    Dog pushed child over (train the dog, train the kid)
    Sheds (but, nooooooo, your hubby wouldn't have that Poodle)
    Got too big (so did your boobs, but hubby didn't send you off to wife swap)
    Aggressive (the puppy growled at a neighbor's puppy while playing)


    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    Well, I'm happy to say that, while I've rejected a couple of dogs at the intro phase, once adopted, no dog has ever left this house until their death.  For some, thankfully, that was a wonderfully long time.  But, in those years that my dogs were enjoying a forever home with me, many others were discarded (even if to a good home).  To a dog, expulsion from the pack is traumatic, the equivalent to "I'm alone - alone means death".  Thankfully, they have a good capacity to develop ties to a new pack, because it's a hard-wired survival skill. 
    Reasons that dogs are dumped vary, but some of the ones I hate the most:
    Moving (would you leave your kids behind?)
    Having a baby (no time for the dog - what'll you do if your kid needs special care?)
    Dog pushed child over (train the dog, train the kid)
    Sheds (but, nooooooo, your hubby wouldn't have that Poodle)
    Got too big (so did your boobs, but hubby didn't send you off to wife swap)
    Aggressive (the puppy growled at a neighbor's puppy while playing)





    Actually one study says the top 10 reasons people give up their pets and in order is:
    1.)  Moving
    2.)  Landlord issues
    3.)  Cost of pet maintenance
    4.)  No time for Pets
    5.)  Inadequate facilities
    6.)  Too many pets in home
    7.)  Pet illness
    8.)  Personal problems
    9.)  Biting
    10.  No homes for littermates
     
    My all time worst was a family who was interested in adopting one of my fosters.  In the application, the family had many dogs in the past and it seemed to have the worst luck with illnesses.  But on the application the family stated they would not spend over $1000 dollars if the dog got seriously ill.  During the home visit, mom made the statement to me that they are not a family that believes in spending hundreds of dollars in order to save/prolong a dog life.  Putting 2 and 2 together, family rejected.