Do You Disagree With CM?

And then there are the weird people out there, like me, who keep a dog who has bitten before . . .
 
BTW, he's coming along very nicely and I'm SO much smarter than I was 6 months ago, thank heavens.

He says not to treat dogs like humans, but we are to walk them in human form.

 
I have to say, when I actually stopped to think about it, raising dogs is actually a lot like raising kids. When CM says to not treat dogs like humans what he means is not to spoil them. But since when has spoiling humans been a good idea either? How about not spoiling either dogs or humans? Likewise over-coddling your children (especially the really fearful kiddies) is also not such a splendid idea the same way that that's not the way to help a fearful dog. You also have to explain and communicate with kids in a way they understand or you can't expect them to understand the rules, and it's the same with dogs.
 
I'm a professional educator of human children and I really can't think of too many ways in which I would treat my students that I wouldn't analogously treat my dogs. When teaching you have to communicate your expectations clearly in a way the students understand, hold them to high standards, scaffold their understanding, positively reinforce their good behavior and performance, take care lest any attention you give to bad behavior actually reinforce it (any attention is good attention to some kids), always set the students up to succeed rather than try to trick them and set them up for failure, and stick by all of your rules consistently once the students clearly understand what those rules are. In living with my dogs and being their teacher, I do the exact same things.
 
Now, if by "treating a dog like a human" or "treating a dog like a kid" you mean spoil them and let them walk all over you--well I don't let any humans do that to me, let alone my dogs. The cats, however, that might be another story!

I actually think that "No!" can be quite useful.  I think in "The Other End of the Leash" it says how a single, sharp note has been found effective in stopping animals.  I use "NO!" to interupt a behavior.  It's not a command to *Do* something as much as a way to get the dog's attention quickly when they are doing something I don't want them to do.  Sometimes I follow it up with as command, sometimes the offending dog (usually Jack, Sally is much more focus) is distracted enough that they just completely cease what they are doing and go about their business.
 
I use something similar with horses.  If a horse is threatening to bite me, crowd me, etc. I'll let out a loud, sharp "HEY!"  The horses don't really have "Hey" in their vocabuary, but it stops them long enough for me to escape/correct the situation.

I think in "The Other End of the Leash" it says how a single, sharp note has been found effective in stopping animals.

 
Yep. I use "hey!" for the dogs (and come to think of it, for students too--it just kind of comes out when I see them doing something totally inappropriate).
 
I think people new to dog training are told to not use "no" only because if you don't understand that it's only to get attention, people way over-use it and expect the dog to understand that "NO!" actually means "Get off the couch!" and "Don't pee there!" and "Stop jumping on me!" and about a bajillion other things. If you understand that "no" is just an attention-getter (as is Cesar's "tsst" ideally) and that after saying "no" you have to actually tell the animal what you want it to do, it's fine. But for the beginner, maybe it's best to just eliminate it from the vocabulary to ensure that the over-use doesn't happen.

I have used "no" with success. It means to disengage from what you are doing. Follow that with an action command produces good results. Then, again, Shadow is smart.[]

I have to agree with you, Ron.  When I got Max he was just a little puppers (est. age 3 to 5 months) and on his 1st. or 2nd. day here he was trotting across the room with something he shouldn't have in his mouth. I just said "Oh no, Max. You shouldn't have that" in a perfectly normal tone of voice  - he stopped, looked at me and dropped what he had.  It was obvious that somebody had taught him that if he has something in his mouth and he hears the word "No" he needs to let go.
 
Joyce

Oh, well see, I use the dog's name to get their attention, followed by what I want them to do. [] After all, that's what a name is for, right? All my dogs are taught (some better than others) to look to me when their name is called, or else come to me if they are in a different room to see what I am calling them about.
 
I know if I was walking down the street, and someone was shouting "Hey!.....Hey!" or "NO!", I'd be a lot less apt to turn and look than someone who called my name to get my attention.
 
Another reason I don't like the word "no", though, is heaven forbid I just shout out "NO" in a house full of dogs, what message would that be sending to the other dogs that live there? It's much more effective in the long run to say the dog's name for attention, and then tell that dog what you wish them to do (or stop doing, in some people's cases).
 
Of course you "can" teach any dog to have an understanding of "no", and of course the meaning takes on whatever meaning you give it. After all, dogs don't come knowing English, and I could just as easily use "soup can" to teach sit, and "Elvis" to teach down. So if you give a specific meaning to "no", such as the same meaning as "Leave It" or "Drop It", then that's fine. But I was addressing the issue of the person who uses "no" to mean 15 different things in 15 different situations, as I have seen discussed in so many discussions before, and in which I'm sure many people on this board use as well. So kudos to those who use "no" for one meaning alone, but I far prefer to teach people to teach their dogs what TO do, as Cressida explains very well.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Well, I'm happy to say that, while I've rejected a couple of dogs at the intro phase, once adopted, no dog has ever left this house until their death.  For some, thankfully, that was a wonderfully long time.  But, in those years that my dogs were enjoying a forever home with me, many others were discarded (even if to a good home).  To a dog, expulsion from the pack is traumatic, the equivalent to "I'm alone - alone means death".  Thankfully, they have a good capacity to develop ties to a new pack, because it's a hard-wired survival skill. 
Reasons that dogs are dumped vary, but some of the ones I hate the most:
Moving (would you leave your kids behind?)
Having a baby (no time for the dog - what'll you do if your kid needs special care?)
Dog pushed child over (train the dog, train the kid)
Sheds (but, nooooooo, your hubby wouldn't have that Poodle)
Got too big (so did your boobs, but hubby didn't send you off to wife swap)
Aggressive (the puppy growled at a neighbor's puppy while playing)

Actually one study says the top 10 reasons people give up their pets and in order is:
1.)  Moving
2.)  Landlord issues
3.)  Cost of pet maintenance
4.)  No time for Pets
5.)  Inadequate facilities
6.)  Too many pets in home
7.)  Pet illness
8.)  Personal problems
9.)  Biting
10.  No homes for littermates

My all time worst was a family who was interested in adopting one of my fosters.  In the application, the family had many dogs in the past and it seemed to have the worst luck with illnesses.  But on the application the family stated they would not spend over $1000 dollars if the dog got seriously ill.  During the home visit, mom made the statement to me that they are not a family that believes in spending hundreds of dollars in order to save/prolong a dog life.  Putting 2 and 2 together, family rejected.

Oh, I'm aware of the list, DPU, and I hate those reasons, too! []

I think the lists are somewhat skewed, however, by the fact that a lot of dogs relinquished to shelters have the "wrong reason" given.  Few owners tell the shelter that the dog didn't housebreak, bit the kids, pulled someone over because they never learned to walk nicely on lead, or wouldn't come when called (now, whose fault was that).  Somehow, those reasons are seldom given, but when I see dogs in class, whose owners are just about fed up (one wonders why they thought it was fine to wait until their cute little puppy was nine months old before coming to class [:@]), it's usually for a mundane reason.  I think people say some of the other reasons because they are too embarrassed to say otherwise.  Moving sounds so respectable. [:'(]


Nice post, houndlove.  Gives me hope for future generations. []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I think the lists are somewhat skewed, however, by the fact that a lot of dogs relinquished to shelters have the "wrong reason" given.  Few owners tell the shelter that the dog didn't housebreak, bit the kids, pulled someone over because they never learned to walk nicely on lead, or wouldn't come when called (now, whose fault was that).  Somehow, those reasons are seldom given, but when I see dogs in class, whose owners are just about fed up (one wonders why they thought it was fine to wait until their cute little puppy was nine months old before coming to class [:@]), it's usually for a mundane reason.  I think people say some of the other reasons because they are too embarrassed to say otherwise.  Moving sounds so respectable. [:'(]

 
Wow, that's really interesting, Anne.  As you may or may not know I volunteer at a fairly large animal shelter.  I was just there today in fact.  On the caged door for each kennel the dog is in, there is a small chart we can read.  Gives info for breed, name, etc.  It also gives reason for why the dog was dumped.  I see the "Moved" an aweful lot.  But I never thought that it is a lie.  If you think about it, that is a VERY strange reason to dump your dog.  I can understand it if a person downsized and had to move into an apartment that doesn't allow animals.  Now I understand why.  I am going to bring this up to the animal shelter and see if they know about this. 
 
One other thing, I felt so bad for this bulldog/staff mix the other day.  The dog whimpered the entire time I walked him.  I told one of the head trainers about it and she said that he did that becuase he is "owner searching."  I went back to see the reason the dog was dumped and it said "Baby."  Isn't that ridiculous?  This dog was a gentle giant.  So sweet.  People are so stupid.   

That happens a lot, too.  And, sometimes, it isn't even that the poor dog did anything to the baby.  New moms get concerned when the dog sniffs the baby, or they have too much to do and are too tired to look after the dog, or they were really only using the dog as a child substitute, and now they have the real thing.  A friend of mine in Maine has added a "Baby on Board" seminar, teaching parents and prospective parents how to have a happy household with a baby and dog together.   To tell you the truth, I wince every time I see some pregnant woman come in to one of my puppy classes....I fear for the dog, especially if it's a breed that tends to be mouthy when it's young.

I took a seminar once at the New England Fed conference that was all about dealing with the public nicely when confronted with idiotic stuff like this.  One girl said that someone actually turned a dog in to her kill shelter (it was a mellow chocolate Lab) because his color no longer matched the decor of the woman's house.  She said she wanted to kill the b*&^%#!!!    

Moving and babies are popular excuses at our shelter too. "New dog doens't like old dog" is also a popular one and it makes me wonder wether there was just some routine growling and the owners freaked out without ever talking to anyone which would lead them to realize that a little growling is not a big deal.
 
But I wanted to just post that I saw a woman in our neighborhood the other day who was walking two dogs along with her baby in a stroller and I was just so filled with goodwill when I saw that. There's a woman who really loves her dogs and didn't just get rid of them when she got pregnant.  And also, there's a woman who really trained her dogs to not pull and to have leash manners! I can barely drink a soda while walking two dogs, adding a stroller to the mix might take more coordination than I actually posess!
 
Anyway, back to the OT or whatever the OT has morphed into at this point. Just wanted to add something nice instead of the usual torrent of infuriating idiotic behavior we normally encounter.

I can barely drink a soda while walking two dogs,

 
Well, you have hounds and they are doing their job. Tracking scent is the reason for living. FWIW, I don't think it's bad if your dogs are pulling, tracking a scent. It's what they were bred for. The pulling is only a problem if you think it's a problem. Just the same, as you said, having manners in your dog is good, too. Such as controlling when they track, with say, a command.
 
One of my favorite scenes was from the movie "Hooper" with Burt Reynolds playing a stuntman based on real-like stuntman, Buddy Joe Hooker. He has his horse trained to poop on command. And he gets the horse to poop in someone's car. Priceless.