Do You Disagree With CM?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


That's actually the problem)  If more people's dogs exhibited fear, people might question these methods sooner.  The problem is not always that severe.  What I notice about "corrected" dogs is that they start to avoid offering behavior.  After all, if you offer your own behavior, and it earns you a leash pop, if you were a smart dog, you'd probably only do what you knew was not going to earn you one. 

 
 
Wow, I don't see that at all in my dogs.  Again, I'd like to make it clear that I use both positive reinforcement and correction with my dogs.  The correction isn't harsh - sometimes it's just a "NO", but it is effective.  My dogs "offer behavior" all the time. 
 
While I think it's possible to train dogs with 100% positive reinforcement or 100% negative reinforcement, it's my opinion that a mixture of the two is the most effective.  I lean heavily on the positive, but I think there's a place for leash corrections and/or verbal correction.
 
 

While I think it's possible to train dogs with 100% positive reinforcement or 100% negative reinforcement

 
You don't really think that way do you???  I believe 100% negative reinforcement would be abuse.
 
 

ORIGINAL: dogslife

While I think it's possible to train dogs with 100% positive reinforcement or 100% negative reinforcement

You don't really think that way do you???  I believe 100% negative reinforcement would be abuse.

I agree - I was making a point.  My point is, extremes on either end are not the best way.  I don't beat my dogs.  I do, however, discipline them when necessary.

I also provide plenty of positive reinforcement.

BTW,  dogs only get punished when they knowingly do something wrong.  A hard leash correction on a dog that has no idea what he's supposed to do is just the human taking out his frustrations on the dog. 

In practice, I find the discipline I use on the dogs is rare, and it's very mild.  Most of the time, expressing verbal disapproval is enough to correct the problem.

I didn't think that you actually meant that! 
 

A hard leash correction on a dog that has no idea what he's supposed to do is just the human taking out his frustrations on the dog.

 
And that is what I believe. 
 
Parenting is an awful lot like training dogs.  We aren't always perfect but it is important to know what is abusive / neglect.   
 
 Effectiveness and caring about how we go about things, knowing your animal is very important.  Personality quirks are going to be there sometimes, and sometimes there are learning "disabilities" and that requires careful attention.
 

I have not seen a CM show or read his book and before I came to this forum I did not know of his existence.  IMO +R only people have done a great job in promoting him.  I have my own dogs and I invite fosters into my home, dozens over the years.  With my dogs, we went through obedience class that used a combination of rewards and corrections.  Rewards are either praise or food treats.  Corrections are applied with a pop of the choker (mostly used in heeling).  I consider my dogs well-trained and always in my control.  With fosters, I get a variety of breeds, mixes, and different personalities from their breed and their past treatment.  I do try and find a motivator and start with +R and depending on the dog#%92s responsiveness move to corrections.  By corrections it mostly touching and positioning.  For a dog that is not getting the sit command, I pet starting at the rear and then down the leg applying slight pressure at the joint and voicing sit.  Eventually the dog sits at the touch of the rear and then at the command of sit.
 
I would like to make two points in my posts.  First, people who admire CM do a great job in describing his philosophy and methods but I think CM is responsible for his audience applying his method regardless if there is a disclaimer.  I have only seen two public occurrences of the CM excess forced submission on dogs.  These two dogs exhibited aggressive behavior on a leash when meeting another dog.  My overall impression was like that of a mom spanking her child in public.  In both situations the dog reacted aggressively, lunge and snap when another dog approached.  The handler reacted by grabbing the scruff of the dog#%92s neck and force the head to the ground.  My observation was the handler removed the dog from the aggression situation and put the dog into another situation.  The dog shut down as a result of the handler#%92s voice, motions, and forced applied.  I did not see how the dog equated his aggressive behavior toward another dog and that of the handler#%92s reaction.  I might be all wet in my conclusion but that was my take.  I can not apply intense physical force to my dogs to change behavior so in that respect I disagree with CM#%92s method for certain behaviors.
 
Second, I question CM#%92s widespread appeal.  There are approximately 55 millions dogs in the US residing in approximately 35 million homes.  I would think that most of the dogs residing in homes are already adjusted and fit well into their family lives.  The show is not in the top 30 favorite programs.  I could not find Dog Whisperer audience number stat or its standing against other shows.  I think it would be very interesting to find out the audience#%92s demograhics.  If you have this information, please share.

I'm an electrician and I've been shocked more times than I care to count, usually about once a year, from trusting someone else's information that the breaker is off. It doesn't mean I'm a bad electrician. It's just a hazard of the job when working with a circuit that may be energized. Normally, in an energized building, I assume everything is hot and treat it as such. The only other time is when I open a junction box that someone else did who was not as good as I am and the wire nut flies off and the wires were not twisted together and the hot one swings out and gets me. Unavoidable. It happens. I grunt, say a curseword, pick up my tool and get on with it.

CM has to spend 6 to 8 hours a day exercising the dogs because has an average of 35 dogs.
 

ORIGINAL: dogslife

I didn't think that you actually meant that! 

A hard leash correction on a dog that has no idea what he's supposed to do is just the human taking out his frustrations on the dog.

And that is what I believe. 

Parenting is an awful lot like training dogs.  We aren't always perfect but it is important to know what is abusive / neglect.   

Effectiveness and caring about how we go about things, knowing your animal is very important.  Personality quirks are going to be there sometimes, and sometimes there are learning "disabilities" and that requires careful attention.

 
Interesting that you made that comparison.  I originally made the same point in my post, but deleted it before I posted (I didn't want someone to accuse me of child abuse).
 
The difference with dogs is that they don't possess the reasoning capability of children, so the methods are of necessity different.  The principles, however, remain the same - if they do what they should, good things happen.  If they misbehave, there are consequences.  Of course, a dog doesn't understand that they can't go to the park today because they misbehaved yesterday - anything you do (good or bad), has to be immediate.
 
Again, I'd like to stress that I use plenty of positives (as I tried to do with the kids).

ORIGINAL: ron2

CM has to spend 6 to 8 hours a day exercising the dogs because has an average of 35 dogs.

If you read the book, it's not that he spends 6-8 hours total divided between 35 dogs so that each dog actually gets only like 1-2 hours of exercise. He exercises the SAME dogs for about 6 hours a day.

If you read the book, it's not that he spends 6-8 hours total divided between 35 dogs so that each dog actually gets only like 1-2 hours of exercise. He exercises the SAME dogs for about 6 hours a day.

 
Just to back inne up, I read the book as well and it does indeed say this. Each dog gets about 6 hours of running exercise (while he rollerblades usually) and after that I believe he lets them fetch a ball a couple of times each as play/affection time. Unfortunately I borrowed the book from the library so I don't have excerpts on hand but I'm sure inne is not mistaken about the exercise amounts.

And here's the "exercise" thing about CM that scares me. I had a hound dog with no health issues, bone issus, muscle issues, etc., and she exercised quite a bit. Then I got a little puppy and she struggled with it here and there, though she seemed fine. Then I found out her brother had no home but that he had some "hip issues" and I after I adopted him I found out he had HD.
 
How many regular pet owners come to this board saying their dog doesn't exercise much and yet, like me, they have no clue as to what HD means? It's scary. First off, who can exercise 6 hours a day, aside from CM or a personal trainer? Secondly, how naive are so many dog owners that they can't tell if their dog is suffering from ACL, HD, "stubborness," or "laziness?"  If they read CM's book (I did), then they'll never know that their dog is hurting and not lazy. I'm serious.
 
That exercise-all-day thing is weird to me.

I do agree if he's working out the dogs for six hours for some dogs that would just be too much.  I can't imagine Willow running or doing any type of exercise for that amount of time.  I think that really needs to be depending on the breed.

Wow..  So now even suggesting exercise for your dog is dangerous?  The one thing I thought everyone pretty much agreed on in regards to CM.  I guess he really can't do anything right! 

He exercises his own dogs for up to 6 hours everyday.  I've never heard him suggest this to anyone else.  I think I've heard him say minimum 45 minutes which really is the least you should do for most dogs.      

With my hound, who had no issues, we ran. We ran every morning and we took two 30 min walks each night. So, there is that. I have always exercised my dog(s). Always. I did it back when I was 10 and nobody else in my neighborhood was doing that.
 
But, check out the Health threads--check out the HD and knee boards and you'll see how many people didn't understand what's normal and what's not and what's acceptable for HD dogs, for instance, and what's not. It's absurd--all this talk of  "laziness" when, in reality, it may be a disease. People don't go to the vets that often--instead, they're into the latest fad: Dog Psychology. Everything is related to that--nothing is seen as "whole" or holistic anymore.
 
And, FYI, though I don't need to defend my dogs' exercise levels today, they exercise just as much as my hound, minus the running, and they go to daycare and they play retrieval games, too, BUT they also learn things--which is just as important as exercise . . .

He exercises his own dogs for up to 6 hours everyday.  I've never heard him suggest this to anyone else.

 
In all honesty, I've never heard him suggest that length of time to anyone else either.  But, considering this is the second time in this thread I've sort of felt like there was a discrepancy I think the show and the book may say two different things.  I haven't read the book though.