Where do you go.....

PERHAPS a leash pop is supposed to be not a painful thing, but too often owners do NOT know what they are doing and the dog IS injured.
 
I disagree with the prong placement you recommend.  The prong should be self correcting and is NOT intended to inflict pain.  And a leash correction should NEVER be done with a prong collar.
 
If you've seen 80 year old women walking 150 lb gsds....wow!  Since breed standard is 65-90 lbs those dogs you are seeing is almost double what they are supposed to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The method I have tried and used successfully when dealing with "people jumpers" is to hold the dogs paws, ignoring the dog (no eye contact or speaking to the dog) and I keep on continuing my business. When the dog is at the point where he wants to get down and get down NOW. I will release the paws and the second that all 4 are on the floor I reward with praise and affection. I remain very consistent in this.



No offense but actually i think that technique would be giving him the attention he is looking for

 
No offense either here either, but what you are doing by holding the dogs paws and keeping him in the "up" position is actually putting him in a "belly exposed and stretched out" vulnerable position which isn't completely comfortable.  Most dogs want down after about 10-15 seconds of being held upright like this.  Especially the bigger bodied ones.  With small or medium sized dogs (any dog under 18 inches or so) I wouldn't use this method at all. 
 
The key to this method is actually accentuating the vulnerablilty of the dog-that's why it's an aversive technique.  Like I said I won't work with all dogs, but it can work with some.

Using an aversive first is not exactly +R, if you mean the entire method, and even though it worked for Xerxes, that is not to say that it will work for other dogs. I'm not sure, given your statement, that you have a complete understanding of operant conditioning training methods, but if you want to learn, you may want to read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog", or Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". Pat's book isn't as "dry" as Karen's, but both are excellent resources. It pays to understand the concept fully before arguing for or against.

I agree that stepping on the leash is fine, but then what? My preference would be to ask the dog to "sit" and reward him. Sit then becomes the default behavior when greeting humans.
Also, I don't think a leash pop or any correction is helpful, since there are many dogs who will simply associate punishment with the appearance of humans. If you are dealing with an aggressive dog, or one who could tip over that edge, you have a real problem then.

 
No offense, but a correction in my book is not punishment, it is redirecting the dog by either touch or noice, where does punishment come into play here?

I almost always, now, use a positive after the negative. I correct the jumping. Then I reward proper behavior. Aversive/Reward. I think this has helped in the training relationship with my dog. It has also helped establish boundaries with other dogs.

 
Correction on my last reply to you, you are not just +R, as a matter of fact I use the same technique a lot of time, correction(not punishment) then reward after the dog is relaxed,I don't want him to associate a reward with an unwanted behavior[]

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I disagree with the prong placement you recommend.  The prong should be self correcting and is NOT intended to inflict pain.  And a leash correction should NEVER be done with a prong collar.

If you've seen 80 year old women walking 150 lb gsds....wow!  Since breed standard is 65-90 lbs those dogs you are seeing is almost double what they are supposed to be.

 
I agree that prong can cause damage to the skin if is not used correctly, maybe buying one with plastic covers in each "needle" would be better
 
I am sorry about the 150 lb reference, in Mexico we use Kilos and sometimes i have mistakes with the conversions [], seems like 90 pounds would be the correct weight

espencer....I was about to say, wow, what a giant....[][]
 
Rumour  weighs about 119, he is very large boned.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Jamie,

What I mean is that I have dealt with this exact problem using +R, and you are ruling out +R in the very asking of your question. I do think that's silly. You are perfectly free to respond that controlling the dog's access to every single person in his life for a month is much more silly. I would agree with you. It is a lot of work. But I did see results that were pretty phenomenal.

I'm not ruling it out, this has been more then a years time of daily work but he's not "there" yet.
 
 
 
 

Great thread!  At first I thought this was a metaphor for recent developments on the forum.  Then as I read the great suggestions I find I am doing print screens to help me in my home situations.  I am into about one month of daily work with my dog and it is a slow progress.  lease keep it up.

I'm not ruling it out, this has been more then a years time of daily work but he's not "there" yet.

I understand completely. Using +R in this situation requires an absurd commitment.

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
I am not going to say that I would have done this much work with a dog that was just jumping, but Jamie it's silly to start this thread saying that +R just didn't work in this hypothetical situation, because there are simple +R techniques that will work if the handler is willing to do the hard work of controlling the dog's access to all the people in the world for a period of time.

SILLY?!?!
First of all, it isn't hypothetical...this is an actual dog.
He isn't "just" jumping he has the power to DRAG a 290lb man and is CLIMBING up people who he comes in contact with, he has gotten better but there is still a LONG way to go before he can make it into public.

You've actually hit the nail on the head with what I feel many people would do...too much work for a dog thats just jumping, since he's NOT just jumping and is really MUCH more work, I'll guess many people would do something drastic. Which is why I've asked the question...where do you go?

Glenda,
You are absolutely right, many people will give up and either resort to heavier training procedures or euthanasia. I don't think this dog has reached either of those two options just yet.

For everyone in this thread, great suggestions and surely new things to try, GL has been attempted, no go. Ignoring is not an option at this point, maybe as it gets a little better.

The only saving grace for this dog is that he will not in any situation put his mouth on you, he has shown improvement and is willing but is so hard to keep focused and retain the recent training, it is like 50 first dates only he can't watch the video...baby steps, baby steps one day he will make it into the outside world, I hope!

I guess my first question would be why this dog was ever allowed to get to this point.  But, that would probably not be productive in this discussion.  If you have tried the GL, do you mind telling me what the problems were that you encountered with it?  What is the dog generally motivated by?

On the note of trying to improve the bond between dog and owner, do you think the umbilical method might help? That being tying the dog's leash to your waist and walking around the house that way. Inside the home or around the yard where there aren't many distractions and not a lot of room for the dog to take off and drag the owner along. I've heard of this method being used to teach very outgoing and exuberant dogs to pay attention to their owners and get used to following their lead.

Our Jill liked to climb up people when she was younger. She's thankfully a lot lighter than this dog sounds to be, but it was tough to get through to her. She was very wiggly and excitable and also a total clutz born without social graces. She'd walk up to you and just keep walking when she reached your legs. We did well with a combination of pushing her paws off us the moment they landed on us, growling no, and turning away with arms crossed, and then asking her to sit. When she sat she got lots of love and if she tried to jump up again, we'd bodyblock her again and cross the arms. She caught on eventually and now she sits like a little angel when she wants pats. Unfortunately, she's still a clutz with no social graces, but at least she's a manageable cultz.

barks at dogs that approach within a certain distance, you begin your work just at the point where the dog appears, but is not yet at the point where it elicits reactivity from your dog, no matter how far away that is. But, often, people say positive didn't work because their dog wouldn't take a treat. Exactly - the dog is telling you he's too close to the scary stimulus - you simply need to increase the distance until the dog is comfortable taking the treat. Then you know where to start!

 
I was pleased with myself when I got that from that other thread a few weeks ago when you were responding to Ace's Mom(?) with her leash-reactive dog.
 

Allow me to be the sacrifical lamb. "Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death..."
 
Shadow is a bit of a jumper. Not as much as he used to be. I can get him to not jump usually by leaving one hand low so that he can sniff me. But he still likes to jump on DW, who was allowing it for a while. Now, when she comes in, she doesn't want to be jumped on. The off command is there but he's not always listening, he just so happy to see her. As he learns more over time, if he is patient, he will get attention. But, as he would sometimes do with guests, who are infrequent, he would still want to jump on them, especially pre-neuter. And I would grab his scruff and he would lower and roll. I let go and we might go through this a few times, but eventually, he would realize that this is not what I want. Later, I learned to follow that up with a command for what I do want. With Shadow, the old turn your back and ignore doesn't work. There were times I would come in with hands full and he would want to jump and I would walk on to the kitchen, not acknowledging his desire to jump up. Well, the next thing is two paws between the shoulder blades.
 
It's still a work in progress, mostly patience and +R, or lack of aversive, I should say. Another method I have used is to re-leash, or send him outside, which bars inclusion in the human thing.

Grabbing the scruff is attention, which is exactly what the dog wants (the term reinforcer comes to mind).  Have you ever read Jan Fennell's work?  She might tell you, when you enter the home, to ignore the dog completely for at least five minutes before initiating any greeting.  Read the mail, go the john, turn on the radio, just don't acknowledge the dog.  No talk, no eye contact,  (No reinforcement.)  Behavior that is not reinforced extinguishes (Be ready for the extinction burst, and ignore that too.)  This takes time, but if you and your family are religiously consistent, it can work rather nicely.

It's easier to practice the "ignore" tactic in wintertime when one is wearing a jacket. Lately, though, when I get home, I've got stuff to bring in, go to the bathroom, etc. If he's outside, he's got some calm down time. But if he's in the house, that's a different story.
 
So, mostly, we just reiterate the command until he complies and reward that with a "good boy" and sometimes a treat. As I said, he's gotten "better" , i.e., learned the new behavior of not jumping. But, in times past, without as much training in, the scruff was a shortcut. And yes, I realize that touch is attention. So is giving the "off" command, and then rewarding it. Again, we just don't get visitors. Halloween gives him reason to bark. The one night of the year when everyone is ringing the door bell. But sometimes, he's not listening to a command that's been trained with treats, play, affection, etc. (Breed trait.)