Where do you go.....

The method I have tried and used successfully when dealing with "people jumpers" is to hold the dogs paws, ignoring the dog (no eye contact or speaking to the dog) and I keep on continuing my business.  When the dog is at the point where he wants to get down and get down NOW.  I will release the paws and the second that all 4 are on the floor I reward with praise and affection.  I remain very consistent in this.

I've had dogs that will jump on their owners come up to me, begin to jump up and then stop 1/2 way or turn away at the top of the jump, and then greet me on all fours. 

I don't think a leash pop would work in this case.  The best way to work with a jumper is to either head off the behavior just before it begins;  you see the dog about to lunge: BAM throw out that "Sit" or "Down" command and reward like crazy when he does it.

As for lunging at strangers, if you have a "stranger" that you can trust you'll need to cash in on favors here.  Load yourself up with smelly liver treats or something of really high value (a squeaker toy perhaps) and walk the dog on a 6 or 10 foot leash.  When the dog looks at the stranger *SQUEAK*  the dog looks at you for the squeaker and gets the toy and the happy human dance (otherwise known as the "No I'm not crazy, I'm just training my dog" dance.)  And then engage in 30 seconds of play. 

When he notices the stranger again:  Repeat.  If by some chance the dog gets to the stranger, the stranger keeps hands down and eyes away from the dog and no talking.  Stranger is boring, boring boring. 

You want your dog to think you're the most interesting person in the whole world. 

That's how I would approach it.  Emphasizing the positives and turning the training into a great big game for you and the dog.  No one else is playing.

Xerxes, what you have proposed is +R, and as the OP indicated did NOT work.

You did throw out some good ideas though[]
 
In my earlier post I mentioned to watch the dog closely and intervene before the unwanted behavior was about to take place, but if it has, stepping on the leash, or a leash op could work.

I have dealt with *exactly* this problem with +R, with Laika. She was really stimulated by people and was a crazy jumper who would lose all focus on handler and forget default behaviors whenever a person approached her, very wild and terribly undersocialized. Regular ignoring had little effect, but here is what I saw results with:

1. Tethering her many times a day, starting in the house and working out into more distracting environments, and waiting for her to settle.
2. Try to approach. The minute she gets up or freaks out at all, take a step back. Calm behavior = steps forward, jumpy behavior = steps backward. Calm when humans approach = attention. Not calm = human goes away.
3. This technique worked because I set her up to succeed first. First try was right after exercise, the distance I started from was small. This was crucial--if I hadn't done this it would have just been too frustrating and she never would have gotten it.
4. It also worked because I strenuously managed her greetings until we had made real progress in a number of environments. I told all of my friends exactly what was going on and gave them a protocol. She went into the crate when people came over. She did not greet a single person unless she was calm from the Day I Started This Technique forward. This part was incredibly difficult and involved being rude or weird to some folks on the street.

Once it did work, it worked really really well, in all environments, with *willing* participation from Laika (who was willing to do very little sometimes). She did graduate eventually to being able to go to the door and greet people without a leash on, but this was after a few weeks of work, including tethering her to the dining room table and instructing guests to do the protocol with her.

Laika was also presenting with serrious aggression issues and really severe reactivity, so corrections were not an option. I am not going to say that I would have done this much work with a dog that was just jumping, but Jamie it's silly to start this thread saying that +R just didn't work in this hypothetical situation, because there are simple +R techniques that will work if the handler is willing to do the hard work of controlling the dog's access to all the people in the world for a period of time.

A couple problems with the leash pop.....some dogs are pain resistent and aren'tgoing to feel that pop and too many people do NOT k, now how to properly do a leash pop without physically damaging a dog.
 
Fisher, I don't think this is a silly thread for this reason.  I think that MANY people reach a point of total frustration and decide that +R is just not working.  I know that I did with Thor.  I played tree so many times that I was starting to grow roots....the problem was that he has the strength to rip those roots right out of the ground.  And, I have shoulder issues.  I always walk the dogs on the left side, but even my left shoulder has been cut into and honestly HE WAS HURTING ME.  For me, being at the end of my rope and having a left arm longer than the right, it was either use an aversive "quick fix" like the prong, or stop walking him at all.
 
In my situation, I'm not sure that I could have done anything else.  He's certainly BIGGER than I am, but I like to think that I'm smarter.  But, I reached the total frustration level and opted for the "quick fix"....which really isn't because the goal is to NOT need the prong for daily walks.
 
I think that if you look at it from THAT angle, this thread is really valid.  And, I agree with mrv that if +R isn't working, you haven't done it right.  I didn't with Thor and leash walking.......[&o]

ORIGINAL: snownose

Xerxes, what you have proposed is +R, and as the OP indicated did NOT work.

You did throw out some good ideas though[]

In my earlier post I mentioned to watch the dog closely and intervene before the unwanted behavior was about to take place, but if it has, stepping on the leash, or a leash op could work.

Using an aversive first is not exactly +R, if you mean the entire method, and even though it worked for Xerxes, that is not to say that it will work for other dogs.  I'm not sure, given your statement, that you have a complete understanding of operant conditioning training methods, but if you want to learn, you may want to read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog", or Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training".  Pat's book isn't as "dry" as Karen's, but both are excellent resources.  It pays to understand the concept fully before arguing for or against.

I agree that stepping on the leash is fine, but then what?  My preference would be to ask the dog to "sit" and reward him.  Sit then becomes the default behavior when greeting humans.
Also, I don't think a leash pop or any correction is helpful, since there are many dogs who will simply associate punishment with the appearance of humans.  If you are dealing with an aggressive dog, or one who could tip over that edge, you have a real problem then.

Snow:
 
I understand that most of what I do is somewhat positive R, and I'm fine with that.  I also realize that my methods will not work on every dog, I have Pharaohs and it won't work on them...they just bounce up and bolt before the human can react.  The paw holding puts the dogs in a vulnerable position, so it isn't exactly positive R. 
 
I almost always, now, use a positive after the negative.  I correct the jumping.  Then I reward roper behavior.  Aversive/Reward.  I think this has helped in the training relationship with my dog.  It has also helped establish boundaries with other dogs.   

If the dog is undersocialized I would be really hesistant to use aversives when correcting him around people - you wouldn't want his main impression of people and strangers to be discomfort, distrust, and negativity.
 
On the other hand I think what Xerxes mentioned with the paw-holding might be something to try - it is not a typical aversive, perhaps not as negative as leash popping.
 
I would just hate to sour the dog's perception of people with some of the traditional aversive methods.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
I am not going to say that I would have done this much work with a dog that was just jumping, but Jamie it's silly to start this thread saying that +R just didn't work in this hypothetical situation, because there are simple +R techniques that will work if the handler is willing to do the hard work of controlling the dog's access to all the people in the world for a period of time.

SILLY?!?!
First of all, it isn't hypothetical...this is an actual dog.
He isn't "just" jumping he has the power to DRAG a 290lb man and is CLIMBING up people who he comes in contact with, he has gotten better but there is still a LONG way to go before he can make it into public.
 
You've actually hit the nail on the head with what I feel many people would do...too much work for a dog thats just jumping, since he's NOT just jumping and is really MUCH more work, I'll guess many people would do something drastic. Which is why I've asked the question...where do you go?
 
Glenda,
 You are absolutely right, many people will give up and either resort to heavier training procedures or euthanasia. I don't think this dog has reached either of those two options just yet.
 
For everyone in this thread, great suggestions and surely new things to try, GL has been attempted, no go. Ignoring is not an option at this point, maybe as it gets a little better.
 
The only saving grace for this dog is that he will not in any situation put his mouth on you, he has shown improvement and is willing but is so hard to keep focused and retain the recent training, it is like 50 first dates only he can't watch the video...baby steps, baby steps one day he will make it into the outside world, I hope!

BTW, the dog is not shy, hesitant or weary of strangers, he is a very outgoing solid temperamented happy dog ..another saving grace.
 

Given all that has been tried, MY answer as an average pet owner, would be to try a prong...properly fitted and with proper instruction.  I know from my own experience how tough it is to work with a dog that is soooo much stronger than I am.

My Bree is a bad jumper. My problem is my family inadvertently re-inforcing her by petting her and exclaiming (when I say, remember what we talked about??), "OH, it's OK, I don't miiiiiind.... Hey Breeeeeee!!!!" in a squeaky voice. This is after we've already discussed ignoring her. ARgh!! Can I use a leash correction on my family?? Her jumping is specifically when folks she knows come into OUR house - quite specifically family members. Not so much friends, but definately family members.

I put her on a leash, and walk her into the room. I keep her on the leash, and every time she makes a move to jump on the parents, I walk her away. When she stops acting like a maniac, we walk back. As soon as she's settled some with either all four on the floor, or sitting, they are allowed to pet. Sometimes it takes 15 minutes to get her settled enough to get off the leash, but it's working. Of course she only weighs 24 lbs, so I understand that this method might not work for a large strong dog who is already dragging the owner.

I'm inclined to think that maybe something that will give the owner a little more physical control wouldn't be a bad thing at this point.

Jaime,
 
I figured that this was a real dog, not a hypothetical.  How old is this boy?  Is it possible to tire him out before you work with him?  Perhaps he'll be in a more willing to learn attitude if he's tuckered out before the "training" session occurs. 
 
He sounds like a sweet boy, just needing a little re-direction, ok alot of redirection. []
 
 

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

Where do you go or what do you do when +R training doesn't work for a dog?

 
+R "training" will work once the dog's social issues are addressed. When teaching skills, tasks, or tricks positive reinforcement based training works very well. But you have to get the dog properly socialized, comfortable, and listening to their leader, before they are receptive to being trained.
 

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

example;
Male dog, in tact has not much socialization but very solid basic obedience. Does sit, down and stay rock solid but will not heel or stay off people because his previous life was very attention starved.....

 
Solid obedience should include a walk at heel, which can fall apart outside of a more controlled environment when you are in new situations or out on the street taking a walk around strangers and their dogs...social distractions. 
 
It sounds like this is not a training problem, but a psychological and social problem, so this is where I would start.
 
There is a socialization issue at work here which needs to be addressed. This starts with educating the owner and teaching them leadership skills so that the dog will feel secure and listen to direction in social situations.
 
"Attention starved" dogs are not fixed by giving them all of the attention we think they may have missed or by feeling sorry for them.

Inappropriate social behavior such as jumping and climbing on people should be met with social disapproval and the setting of boundaries. A dog doesn't know this unless you communicate where their boundaries are.
 
If this dog was in my home I would keep a leash on him and move into him, give a boundary word, eye contact, and back him up if he tried to jump on me. I would also give a leash correction if needed.
 
Once he started responding to me as his leader and understood boundaries and a boundary word or sound, I would begin setting up situations with friends who would come in and ignore the dog completely, while I continued working with the dog.
 
The dog should not be isolated from in-home social activities, but he should be in a down position and ignored until he learns to relax.
 
I do not use any food rewards in these situations because it increases a dog's excitement level, and right now all I want is for the dog to learn to be calm and relaxed around people, and not interacting with everyone personally.
 
I would also include walking with the dog using turns into the dog and away from the dog to brush up the heel and keep his focus on me and not on other people and dogs. Turns and the leash can be used to contain, redirect, and correct the dog without harsh punishments. It's mostly about attitude and establishing leadership.
 
Well, this is "winging" it without seeing the dog and owner, but these are some of the basics.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The method I have tried and used successfully when dealing with "people jumpers" is to hold the dogs paws, ignoring the dog (no eye contact or speaking to the dog) and I keep on continuing my business.  When the dog is at the point where he wants to get down and get down NOW.  I will release the paws and the second that all 4 are on the floor I reward with praise and affection.  I remain very consistent in this.

 
No offense but actually i think that technique would be giving him the attention he is looking for
 
Ignoring is a good choice, crossing the arms and even giving your back at him will make him realize you dont want anything to do with that behavior
 

ORIGINAL: glenmar

A couple problems with the leash pop.....some dogs are pain resistent and aren'tgoing to feel that pop and too many people do NOT k, now how to properly do a leash pop without physically damaging a dog.

 
Well a leash pop is painless so it does not matter if the dog is "pain resistant" or not, you dont do leash pops up but to the side, the idea of a leash pop is not to cause pain (since they are painless anyways like i said) but to "snap" the dog out of that state of mind, just like when you are really into your thoughts and somebody comes and touch you, after that touch you "come back" to the "real world", thats the goal  []
 

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

Lots of exercise has been given in training sessions, dog still will climb right up you or a stranger if contact is allowed to be made. Dog will pull you to stranger if you do not have enough strength behind yourself to hold in place.

Dog is not food or toy driven

 
What correction you apply then?  the correction that you describe is not be strong enough to redirect your dog, because it doesn#%92t match the level of intensity of his instinct and desire to meet strangers.
 
Whenever you want to correct a dog#%92s unwanted behavior, you have to match the intensity of that behavior.
 
While positive reinforcement like food and toys are excellent ways to redirect many behavior issues, if a dog is fixated on something, those tools often won#%92t match the intensity of the fixation. Sometimes it takes a more physical-psychological approach.
 
I have seen 80 years old ladies handling 150 punds German Shepards, the prong collar is a good tool, you dont have anything too lose, now the placement of the collar is important, the dog can help himself with his shoulders to pull if the collar is at the bottom of the neck, if you have it at the top you have half of the battle won
 
Another thing make sure the dog is calm EVEN before putting the leash on him and EVEN before going out from the house, try to excersice him BEFORE going out for a walk so his energy is not that strong and you have more chances to correct the behavior
 
Timing is important, dont let the dog to be fixated on meeting strangers too long, every second that passes becomes on a higher fixation, the soonest you can correct the faster and easier you will "snap" him out of it, at the moment he places his eyes on a stranger is when you have to correct him

Jamie,

What I mean is that I have dealt with this exact problem using +R, and you are ruling out +R in the very asking of your question. I do think that's silly. You are perfectly free to respond that controlling the dog's access to every single person in his life for a month is much more silly. I would agree with you. It is a lot of work. But I did see results that were pretty phenomenal.