Where do you go.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Where do you go.....

    Where do you go or what do you do when +R training doesn't work for a dog?
     
    example;
    Male dog, in tact has not much socialization but very solid basic obedience. Does sit, down and stay rock solid but will not heel or stay off people because his previous life was very attention starved.....
     
    Ideas, conversation welcome but keep it positive and general. No personal attacks on methods or techniques allowed.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I hate to say it, but if everything has been tried:
     
    Leash correction when demanding heeling.
     
    Long leash for when interacting with people and stepping on leash when command "off "is not followed. Not letting the dog get to anybody unless calm, and submissive. Only when you allow contact is the dog allowed to sniff or be touched.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Not being a trainer, I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this, but I'd ask a couple questions.....
     
    How long have you (or the owner) been working on these behaviors?  Has ignoring been tried?  Kept leashed to the owner at times when that behavior is likely to be exhibited?
    • Gold Top Dog
    socialization and control has been for the past year, dog is now four years old. Basic obedience was when dog was a pup/young adult.
     
    Lots of exercise has been given in training sessions, dog still will climb right up you or a stranger if contact is allowed to be made. Dog will pull you to stranger if you do not have enough strength behind yourself to hold in place.
     
    Dog is not food or toy driven
    • Gold Top Dog
    Has an easy walk harness been tried?  If so, perhaps its time for a prong.

    How about BACK to training classes?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ots of exercise has been given in training sessions, dog still will climb right up you or a stranger if contact is allowed to be made. Dog will pull you to stranger if you do not have enough strength behind yourself to hold in place.

     
    But he will hold a stay if a stranger walks nearby?
     
    What foods have you tried?  (Basenjis liked food to be changed often when we were doing conformation.)
     
    Is the dog being rewarded for climbing up a stranger?  (My guess is he gets attention/petting for doing this behavior?  That's a MAJOR reward for this dog, if my guess is right)
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I likely wasn't very clear when I asked if ignoring had been tried.  Good point Agile!
    • Gold Top Dog
    When the dog gets into this frenzy it is all about getting to what it is focused on, the goal is to snap him out of it before the behavior starts, if it is too late for that then correction could help.
     
    If being pet at the time of climbing on a person, as the above poster mentioned the touch will be the reward for him.
    • Gold Top Dog
    heck, snow, if the dog is being SCOLDED for climbing, that in itself is a reward...they are just like kids, they'll take whatever attention they can get.
     
    However, your post did bring a thot to mind....owner MUST keep this dog totally focused on themselves all the time, no matter WHAT that takes.  I have one dog who will ignore about anything over a squirrel, but by golly if I start barking or making dog-like noises, the squirrel is forgotten fast.
    • Gold Top Dog
    If positive reinforcement did not "work" then positive reinforcement being used by the person involved was not effective.  If the behavior is being maintained at a consistent level, then something in the environment is positively reinforcing the undesired behavior.  So you need to look at the whole situation from prior to the behavior to after the behavior occurred.  A video can be very helpful. 

    Another reason it will be stated that "positive" reinforcement did not work dealt with issues of fading the supports that resulted in behaviors that were targeted.  If a kid can spell words on a spelling test only when given in a certain order, can the kid really spell the words.  There needs to be a specific plan to fade cues or supports, lengthen the time between behavior and reinforcement and fade the reinforcement to a much leaner schedule. 

    The techinque was not properly applied; it will work if the situation is examined and a more specific plan with greater attention to the environmental issues and the shaping of behavior and fading of supports needs to occur.
    • Gold Top Dog
    By correction I was refering to either stepping on leash, or a leash pop........

    It's funny how you mentioned the dog with the squirrel issue....lol, now that I have the new addition I have been reminded of the stubborness of a dog not trained yet. I let all of them out and they romp and play, then I recall, and what does the little squirt do? He comes up to the gate and decides it isn't time for him yet, so I kind of make a fool of myself and act like I am munching on something, loudly that is....here he comes, once in the gate I tell him "good boy", and by then he has forgotten why he came to me.......works everytime[:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Has clicker training been tried? [;)]

    I would attempt to cement the bond between owner and dog a little more. If it were possible, I think a good way to do this is go for long hikes in dense bush with a narrow path. I found with my dog that this taught her very effectively to pay close attention to me and walk right on my heels. She didn't want to lose me in the long grass and shrubs and with all the intersecting paths made by animals, she had to pay attention to where I was going or she'd end up on the wrong path. We started off on a long line, but I found it wasn't long before she never strayed more than a couple of metres away from me anyway, so we graduated to off lead. It's something that's not going to work so well with a dog with an independent streak, though. Or a dog with a very strong prey drive.

    With the jumping problem, I think it might take a lot of patience, but going inside every time the dog jumps on you without a word to the dog, and then coming out and trying again ten minutes later and repeating until the dog learns to sit if he wants attention. Practicing NILIF. And using a gentle leader or no-pull harness on walks.

    If none of that worked, I would be open to using aversives such as spray bottles or loud noises as long as it didn't seriously frighten the dog. I would most probably seek professional help from a behaviourist.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mrv

    If positive reinforcement did not "work" then positive reinforcement being used by the person involved was not effective.  If the behavior is being maintained at a consistent level, then something in the environment is positively reinforcing the undesired behavior.  So you need to look at the whole situation from prior to the behavior to after the behavior occurred.  A video can be very helpful. 

    Another reason it will be stated that "positive" reinforcement did not work dealt with issues of fading the supports that resulted in behaviors that were targeted.  If a kid can spell words on a spelling test only when given in a certain order, can the kid really spell the words.  There needs to be a specific plan to fade cues or supports, lengthen the time between behavior and reinforcement and fade the reinforcement to a much leaner schedule. 

    The techinque was not properly applied; it will work if the situation is examined and a more specific plan with greater attention to the environmental issues and the shaping of behavior and fading of supports needs to occur.

     
    I totally agree.  Positive training takes time, patience, and proper technique.  It rarely fails, properly applied.
    Unfortunately, if a dog is still jumping on humans, probably what has happened is that the dog has been accidentally reinforced for doing so.  Reinforcement comes in many forms, and even a negative can be perceived by the dog as reinforcement.  As can eye contact, shoving him away, making a noise at him, etc.  I have found that ignoring is really the best thing you can do, but you must do it consistently, with no voice, no eye contact, no nuttin' until the behavior extinguishes.  The thing that gets most people in trouble is the extinction burst - the dog's behavior gets worse (after all, whatever he was doing used to work, so he tries harder at it), so they assume positive training didn't work.  But, had they continued, and waited it out, still ignoring, the next thing that follows the extinction burst is - well, extinction.
    One can do things to try to create a situation that makes the dog successful.  Example, the dog that pulls like crazy.  If you acclimate the dog to a Gentle Leader, or Halti, you can control his head, which means he no longer pulls you off your pins.  Then, you set about your training regimen.  Walk two steps C/T (click/treat, or click/reinforce), walk another two steps C/T.  After the dog is consistently doing that, you can add a cue word or phrase, like "walk with me" or "let's go", or "heel". 
    Another mistake people make is that they put the dog into situations it cannot yet handle.  If you raise the distraction level, you must temporarily lower your expectations.  And, if you are trying to desensitize a leash reactive dog, for example, that barks at dogs that approach within a certain distance, you begin your work just at the point where the dog appears, but is not yet at the point where it elicits reactivity from your dog, no matter how far away that is. But, often, people say positive didn't work because their dog wouldn't take a treat.  Exactly - the dog is telling you he's too close to the scary stimulus - you simply need to increase the distance until the dog is comfortable taking the treat.  Then you know where to start!
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree with Melissa. First thing I thought was "not focused on his person enough."

    Anne is right - it will take a TON of work with this dog. Consider this - the problem is that the dog seeks attention, right? So, attention should be the REWARD - the reinforcer. This is going to be the kind of dog that would consider a knock in the head with a two-by-four, to be pleasant attention. No sense even going there at all. So in OC terms you want to go R-: withold that attention and give it when the dog is right.

    Remember also not to go crazy every time the dog is right. Modulate those rewards - you wouldn't give the big stinky piece of liver for a 39th rep of a correct sit - so reserve the huge parties for big accomplishments.

    I'd definitely use a clicker rather than a vocal marker for this dog, too. You don't want to confuse the marker and the reinforcer. Unless you have such command of your voice that you could issue completely consistent marker words (I can't for sure). [;)] I say "you" meaning whoever is handling this dog, of course.
    • Gold Top Dog
    One technique that k-9 trainers use is to hand feed the dog for two weeks or more.  That convinces the dog that his human is verrrry important.  No one but the handler feeds the dog anything, or gives any attention, for a couple of weeks, boy that person is going to be even more important. 
    This worked wonders for my hound, who was scared of my BF when I first got him.  So, BF got the feeding and pee/poop duty for three weeks, and I gave the poor little hound dog nuthin'.  He *loves* my BF now, even though he is still more bonded to me.  They go for a walk together every day.