I find it odd

No flames from me because I do agree with you to a certain point...up until the dittohead stuff.
 
you and I, Anne and I, heck, just about everyone and I have disagreed on stuff, but we DO it without slapping one another and name calling.
 
I AGREE with the separate section for the CM fans and/or fanatics and I AGREE that a separate section that focus's solely on +R could be beneficial.  The Ian Dunbar thread is a classic example of why it's needed.

I'm going to get flamed for this, but what the heck?

 
I don't think your post deserves flames at all.  It's very insightful and well thought out.  You are completely right.  It is a shame that CM can't seem to be discussed in open debates without it getting ugly.  That, sometimes, is what happens in any debate though. 
 
You're also right about it getting boring if we all just sit around and agree with each other and nod our heads.  That would go for nutrition threads, breed threads and training threads.  We really shouldn't NEED a separate CM thread at all.  As adults, we can learn to agree to disagree and move on.  I don't even know why I get caught up in this type thing, because I for one DO read about all different types of training and different proffessionals frequently mentioned here.  I am not close-minded to CM at all.  I like him, but that doesn't mean I don't also respect Ian Dunbar for what he's accomplished over the decades.
 
I think the good that is coming out of all this is that we are talking to each other and apparently many of us have stepped back a bit, took a breath and moved on. Personally, I think everyone should be able to post anywhere on this forum they choose as long as it doesn't get nasty.  All opinions should be welcome.

I can see where Anne is coming from.  Maybe there could be a section labeled simply "+R" and all of those trainers, not just Jean Donaldson, could be discussed.  It wouldn't have to be named after a specific trainer.

Joyce

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

 when the "treatdispensingbutlerroomate" language comes out
 

 
I think the difference in name calling was that in every single thread where CM was his techniques were called "bully like", "terror like" "hanging like" etc. and of course the people who love those techniques felt attacked; the "treatdispensingbutlerroomate" language appeared only once and that was one month ago
 

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

 I think it's giving in to the very few people who would rather hammer away at their CM copy-paste
 

 
Wow i think that comment was for me since i was the only one around here doing that [], i changed that by just posting the links, lots of happy faces to you [][][]
 
So like Scout in Canada said, other trainers could be named and no big deal but if CM was on the picture then somebody had to come always with the "bully" techniques card and the "no dont do that because CM is like this and like that" description, that never happens with Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson, etc, no one was never discourage to read aboout +R trainers []
 
It's only the way you can see the situation, i can always say that i feel pushed away and i cant not talk about CM if is not in the right place which is not fair, but thats not the idea
 
The whole rest of the forum is able to talk about +R trainers while only one little part of it is only for CM, thats sounds to me like a 95% against 5% difference and that should be good dont you think? []

I would prefer to see one about Patricia McConnell.
 
[]

I would prefer discipline at an individual level.  There are not alot of individuals who exhibit this extreme behavior on this form.  Its the same old same old.

There are not alot of individuals who exhibit this extreme behavior on this form.

That's exactly my point.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

I'm going to get flamed for this, but what the heck?

I think it's interesting that this has become divisive, and I think it's interesting that the "+R people" are continuing to be misrepresented, even by the "+R people" themselves.

The problem with invoking CM's name or methods in mixed company is so simple, and it's not that the +R people are being a$$holes, and it's not that CM's methods are so mysterious that they cannot be discussed among thoughtful and considerate people. It's just that there is a very small handful of people (who are, overwhelmingly, CM supporters) who take any questioning of CM's techniques or disagreement and turn it into name calling and rather ugly, political, Calling-Karen-Pryor-A-Catkiller kind of language.

This small handful of people has very little to do with the overwhelming majority of posters, "+R People" and "CM People" alike, who enjoy healthy debate and respond to the *content* of the debate instead of, say....

...calling someone who disagrees with CM and says so in clear, unprovocative language a "hater."

While it is true that Anne has a real penchant for letting this nasty behavior get under her skin and does not remember to apply any of her +R skills when the "treatdispensingbutlerroomate" language comes out, Anne usually does not start these fights. She consistently takes the bait, but could we all give her and everyone else who has taken the bait just a little bit of credit? It really makes me angry that she and other +R people are getting tarred here when the inappropriate, aggressive behavior is so consistently the result of a couple of CM trolls?

I think that CM is an interesting topic, and I think that there are so many people here who can get into a heated discussion about CM and still listen to one another (Trevell, Mastiff and increasingly Angelique come to mind--I have learned things from these posters and I often disagree with what they have to say), that I am sad to see a new Cesar Millan ghetto. I would rather have seen the two or three people who consistently move away from the content of the discussion and turn CM discussions into politicized nameflinging that has nothing to do with dogs suspended from the board.

I say this because I have learned so much from people like Mastiff and Trevell, who have a totally different sensibility about training than I do. I want them around in ALL the training discussions and not just the ones for CM-Dittoheads. I also think that a CM area is a terrible idea because discussing things on forums is a great way to confirm what you believe and why. I am such a strong proponent of +R *because* I have been asked tough questions and been forced to think about them and defend my point of view. I think it's completely unfair to separate CM supporters from the kind of informal intellectual scruitiny that forums like this are good for. I think it's giving in to the very few people who would rather hammer away at their CM copy-paste and frankly mock other posters than learn something, or at least respond to the content of posts that disagree with CM's techniques.

But for all I think that this CM ghetto is an unfortunate decision that I disagree with, Anne, I disagree with you even more. Continuing this fracturing of thought into tidy little Dittohead areas where everybody who reads Jean Donaldson goes and nods at one another knowingly, and everyone who likes to watch the Dog Whisperer goes to another area and nod knowingly?

Not only does that sound really boring; it's also a really great way to put a complete halt to intellectual activity on this forum. Awful.

That's precisely why I hate that a separate area has been created.  I'm certainly not welcome there, but everyone there can still come onto the other threads and dump on me or others all they like.  I like a healthy debate on training methods, and you are right that I rarely start namecalling.  But, frankly, I get really sick of being called names, then having the trolls get their own section.  Most of us who have strong opinions are perfectly well capable of expressing them without getting personal as long as the other factions don't start the abuse or misinformation.  My beef is if you understand what CM does, feel free to comment, but don't tell me anything about my methods if you don't even understand them and aren't even willing to listen and learn.  At least I can intelligently comment on CM, having read the book, and watched the shows.  Did my counterparts on the other side have the same experience with Ian Dunbar or anyone else?  Slap on the wrist taken, but thanks for the assessment of the rest of what has been going on.  Nice that someone noticed.[]

I like a healthy debate on training methods, and you are right that I rarely start namecalling. But, frankly, I get really sick of being called names, then having the trolls get their own section.

 
 
Is that really necessary?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

But, frankly, I get really sick of being called names, then having the trolls get their own section. 

Haha that was actually funny  [sm=rotfl.gif], complaining about being called names and right after doing it yourself

Dont worry Anne i already pm Jamie to show your complain []

Name calling never solves anything, and the fact that someone calls you a name doesn't mean one should reciprocate. That simply shows a lack of controll one has over their emotions. And if someone can so easily lose it over the internet...how do they handle dogs that give them a difficult time.

Oh for CRAP SAKES!  Will you guys please just freaking STOP THIS STUFF?????
 
And don't anyone DARE tell me if I don't like it don't read it.  You may find Jaime getting as sick of this crap as I am and just unplugging the whole freaking forum.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Oh for CRAP SAKES!  Will you guys please just freaking STOP THIS STUFF?????

 
Totally right!!!, whats up with the name calling?  the people who is calling names should be ashamed!!!  i agree with glenmar [:@]

I'm going to echo Glenda here.  I'm not going to take any sides.  Everybody grow up.  This is getting as tiresome as it is droll.  I refuse to believe that we cannot act like s.  We're not discussing religion at a tail party...we're talking differences of opinion about training dogs.   

Either get on topic or close the thread.  Nobody's learning anything therefore this thread is moot.

Interesting...

Jaime created a section for the "Cesar Groupies" to discuss Cesar's methods and philosophies without harassment from those who do not agree.

She (as the leader of this board) set up some simple rules at the top of the forum. These rules were neither read, respected, or complied with by a couple of members.

Where is the problem?

a) Lack of respect for the "rules, boundaries, and limitations" set up by the board leader?

b) The supposition that being "right", disqualifies and nulifies any rules.

c) Lack of respect for the forum leader.

d) Jaime may need to be firmer to establish her leadership and there needs to be penalties for non-compliance.

e) All of the above...

Humans...[8D] aaarg! If you can't respect leadership from another human being, how can you possibly teach other humans to be good leaders to their dogs?

Regardless, I still find all human behavior fascinating! Dogs are easy. []