I find it odd

Anne,
Let it go. There are several other areas for training and discussing it. Training is an area where everyone should be able to discuss the things they know and have learned but for some reason this has topic has gotten way out of hand. The problems are far more trouble then they are worth and if this continues I will remove ALL training sections. As I really don't wish to do this but the time, energy and labor isn't worth the grief it is bringing here besides the walls that are being built here

Don't look at it in a negative way.
 
Every time a thread got started with Cesar in it, it would turn into a big mess. I think most who wanted to discuss Cesar felt attacked.[]

Wow, I never thought I would hear this.  With all the problems we have with the guy I'm glad there is a new section dedicated to him.  It takes the debate out of the training topics and allows those who want to talk about him do so without the harassment.  I don#%92t agree with his methods fully but I#%92ll certainly listen to what people have to say about him.
 
I think if anything there are eople who know nothing about dogs but somehow bring up this guys name.  He really has educated the public about dogs.  On lady in one of my classes asked me "I saw this on CM... I don't think I'm being a good pack leader..."  I explained to her there are other ways to train a dog and she was surprised that CM wasn't the only way.  It's just an openion and if it creats such a debate it deserves to have it's own section.  Maybe once the CM craze dies down it will not be nessary to have that section anymore.  Read the rules in there, it helps protect thoes who have something to say without being bashed about it.
 

I am under the impression, mistaken perhaps, that anyone who does not totally support CM and the methods that he uses is not welcome to visit this particular topic.
 
I am not a completely, purely +R trainer and I've used the evil PRONG, but every single time I tried to enter a discussion regarding CM and/or his methods I was either blown off or called the forum cops.  It has been made abundantly clear that my input, no matter WHAT it was just flat wasn't welcome.
 
So, yeah, I second Anne's request for a topic where those who use only traditional training, and are just going to come to that topic to push CM's method, are not to visit.  It would be nice for those of us who LIKE +R to have a place WE can talk without constant harrasment.
 
 

Perhaps it would be fair to have a +R topic too, even though I feel that several attempts were made in that direction , and to be fair were hi-jacked in some ways by CM fans too.

I personally use a little bit of everything.......call it the snownose training....lol[]

I am under the impression, mistaken perhaps, that anyone who does not totally support CM and the methods that he uses is not welcome to visit this particular topic

 
Mistaken, everyone is welcome but the attitudes and remarks are not. Training is done on many levels depending on THE DOG, not the TRAINER.
 
There are several other areas of the "Training" section that positive as well as other methods can be talked about.
 
What bothers me the most is the "positive" training doesn't emit a positive attitude.
 
I have a question I'd really like answered, I asked to someone earlier and it must have just been missed I'm sure. As most of you already know I do not feel that any ONE method or technique should be used on ALL dogs.
 
So if you're interested and have some thoughts or ideas please visit and tell me what you think...again NO METHOD OR TECHNIQUE is wrong
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=183552&mpage=1&key=𬴀]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=183552&mpage=1&key=𬴀[/link]

Thanks for the clarification, Jaime.  I will most likely avoid that topic simply because I don't really care for being called names either, and have enough of an Irish temper that I don't always think before I type in response.
 
Now, I'll admit that I felt like a total failure with Thor that I couldn't teach him not to pull on the lead without a prong.....using it was NEVER something that I wanted to need to do.  That isn't the way I like to train.
 
I do totally see Anne's point however, that if there is a topic completely devoted to CM fans there should also be a topic completely devoted to +R, and/or on the fence fans.
 
 

And you know, that isn't exactly something we wouldn't do. This forum has changed so much in the past year with many areas and topics being added that one for +R would be an advantage.
 
The situation needed to be defused, the pro CM members were getting attacked and being called names as well as the +R members and this is not what this forum is about.
 
Now there is a place where they can discuss those methods, the show and his training without involving themselves in battles as well as the other areas where it can all come together and hopefully we can all learn through experience and sharing...I know, in a perfect world right []

Thank you Jaime, that would be wonderful.  Pretty close to a perfect world!

I feel very sad that it came to this, but I'm glad the CM forum has come up. People were getting sledged even for finding one thing from CM that they liked. I'm very much an operant conditioning person, but I still find things from other training methods useful, and I was feeling like I was going to make loads of enemies on this board by saying that in relation to CM.

I was told by a proponent of traditional training that I was making my dog miserable and I put up with some unpleasant remarks from positive trainers for saying I liked some of what CM does. But I feel like I copped a lot more for expressing my vaguely positive views on CM than my very strong views on traditional training, so I feel the CM forum was more necessary than an operant conditioning training forum.

[sm=2cents.gif]

I think adding the CM area was reasonable. There is obviously a fairly large group of members who really enjoy CM's shows, book, and methods. Hence - a spot for discussing CM.
 
Although there may be many more who enjoy Jean Donaldson's methods, your average 'Jean Donaldson' thread does not get diluted with arguments and silly name calling, posturing, etc. So no need to isolate Jean Donaldson fans in a seperate training section.

I feel partially responsible for some of the anti-CM sentiments.  I don't think I've ever said anything that bashed his methods, even though I use other methods I won't generally bash those that use methods other than what I use.  But I did post the Ian Dunbar article and that thread got out of hand in a hurry. 
 
 I realize that not all training methods work equally well with all dogs.  I just think that we would all get along better if the name calling and negativity would stop.  This goes for both sides.
 
So thanks Jaime. 

I'm going to get flamed for this, but what the heck?

I think it's interesting that this has become divisive, and I think it's interesting that the "+R people" are continuing to be misrepresented, even by the "+R people" themselves.

The problem with invoking CM's name or methods in mixed company is so simple, and it's not that the +R people are being a$$holes, and it's not that CM's methods are so mysterious that they cannot be discussed among thoughtful and considerate people. It's just that there is a very small handful of people (who are, overwhelmingly, CM supporters) who take any questioning of CM's techniques or disagreement and turn it into name calling and rather ugly, political, Calling-Karen-Pryor-A-Catkiller kind of language.

This small handful of people has very little to do with the overwhelming majority of posters, "+R People" and "CM People" alike, who enjoy healthy debate and respond to the *content* of the debate instead of, say....

...calling someone who disagrees with CM and says so in clear, unprovocative language a "hater."

While it is true that Anne has a real penchant for letting this nasty behavior get under her skin and does not remember to apply any of her +R skills when the "treatdispensingbutlerroomate" language comes out, Anne usually does not start these fights. She consistently takes the bait, but could we all give her and everyone else who has taken the bait just a little bit of credit? It really makes me angry that she and other +R people are getting tarred here when the inappropriate, aggressive behavior is so consistently the result of a couple of CM trolls?

I think that CM is an interesting topic, and I think that there are so many people here who can get into a heated discussion about CM and still listen to one another (Trevell, Mastiff and increasingly Angelique come to mind--I have learned things from these posters and I often disagree with what they have to say), that I am sad to see a new Cesar Millan ghetto. I would rather have seen the two or three people who consistently move away from the content of the discussion and turn CM discussions into politicized nameflinging that has nothing to do with dogs suspended from the board.

I say this because I have learned so much from people like Mastiff and Trevell, who have a totally different sensibility about training than I do. I want them around in ALL the training discussions and not just the ones for CM-Dittoheads. I also think that a CM area is a terrible idea because discussing things on forums is a great way to confirm what you believe and why. I am such a strong proponent of +R *because* I have been asked tough questions and been forced to think about them and defend my point of view. I think it's completely unfair to separate CM supporters from the kind of informal intellectual scruitiny that forums like this are good for. I think it's giving in to the very few people who would rather hammer away at their CM copy-paste and frankly mock other posters than learn something, or at least respond to the content of posts that disagree with CM's techniques.

But for all I think that this CM ghetto is an unfortunate decision that I disagree with, Anne, I disagree with you even more. Continuing this fracturing of thought into tidy little Dittohead areas where everybody who reads Jean Donaldson goes and nods at one another knowingly, and everyone who likes to watch the Dog Whisperer goes to another area and nod knowingly?

Not only does that sound really boring; it's also a really great way to put a complete halt to intellectual activity on this forum. Awful.

Fisher: [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]
 
Thank you.
 
I can see having a seperate CM board where all CM-related debate could take place without scaring folks off who have no interest in participating in it, but a CM board where no one who disagrees with him is allowed to post? That bothers me. There was something I wanted to say over there regarding the labels "instinctual" and "naturalistic", but if  I undesrtand things correctly, I'm not permitted to speak my mind about that in that forum. And that just seems wrong. And boring for those folks, I think, eventually. Who wants to go somewhere where everyone just cheerleads for eachother and no one really fundamentally challenges your assumptions?