Cesar Milan - Good or Bad?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

It's pretty sad and this is not the place to find someone who uses Cesar's methods - which is what the OP was asking about.

FYI: the original poster asked people's opinions of CM, and not for a trainer or behaviourist who subscribes to his methods.

Excuse me for "missing" the main question.  I, being one of those fanatics, didn't want a CM type behavioralist.  I didn't NEED a quick fix....I needed a long lasting one.
 
while the APDT is a mostly anti-Cesar group with an inner-circle of "Positive Only" fanatics, and not a good place to go if you want to find someone who uses his methods.
 
I wonder why, since you so staunchy defend CM and HIS techniques, you think it's OK to call anyone who doesn't agree with you names?
 

 

I've TRIED CM's methods to rehab a dangerous dog, and it made the dog worse. Much worse. I know someone who tried CM's methods on her dog, and it turned the dog into a vicious fear-biter. That dog was executed not long ago. I go to the dog park and watch in disbelief as all sorts of normally pleasant, rational people go around making weird ssshing noises at dogs (which the dogs mostly ignore). One of the trainers at the dog club I go to tells me that people who watch the show regularly (and their dogs) are a big problem in their classes. I'm forced to conclude that the show is bad.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Let's not forget, Cesar gets calls from owners where the dogs have already gone beyond the usual training attempts.

No, and let's not forget that nearly all trainers and behaviorists get those calls.

mudpuppy, I have to agree.  It's gotten so bad in my area that puppies ten weeks old are getting sssssttttt'd at when they haven't even been to class yet.  I've started telling all my classes to read The Culture Clash and turn off the TV LOL.
IACP is an organization that also welcomes positive trainers as far as I know.  And, while there is a move afoot to make APDT positive only, some members are running against that platform in the elections.
Personally, if you want a positive only trainer, you can find one at www.clickertraining.com.  If you need a qualified behaviorist, you contact the Animal Behavior Society, or the nearest veterinary college, for a referral. 
Last but not least, aggression toward the dog increases aggression from the dog.  You may not see it immediately, but listen closely and hear the time bomb ticking...
.[sm=smack.gif]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I've TRIED CM's methods to rehab a dangerous dog, and it made the dog worse. Much worse. I know someone who tried CM's methods on her dog, and it turned the dog into a vicious fear-biter. That dog was executed not long ago. I go to the dog park and watch in disbelief as all sorts of normally pleasant, rational people go around making weird ssshing noises at dogs (which the dogs mostly ignore). One of the trainers at the dog club I go to tells me that people who watch the show regularly (and their dogs) are a big problem in their classes. I'm forced to conclude that the show is bad.

 
Well I know someone who tried CM's methods on his dog and the dog got better, i know aggressive dogs that their lives were saved for methods like CM, it all depends on each person experiences
 
The difference is if the people was doing it right or wrong, for agressive dogs they MUST contact a professional, if they do it themselves then they have high chances of failing, if the dog detects a small amout of doubt then the dog wont listen and probably would think is a rebelion against him, a professional does not have doubts or second thoughts at the time to do it and thats when it works
 
I wont blame the entire Continental Airlines company because a dumb friend chrashed an airplane without having classes before right? i wont be "oh planes are evil, my friend wanted to fly one and got hurt"

I wont blame the entire Continental Airlines company because a dumb friend chrashed an airplane without having classes before right? i wont be "oh planes are evil, my friend wanted to fly one and got hurt"

?

Angelique, it's a good thing you do have dogs.  I hear they lower your blood pressure.  If you really knew anything about Jean Donaldson, you would realize that she actually does mention some aversive techniques in her books.  The difference is that she is very aware of how easy it is for those techniques to backfire, and tells the reader just what could happen if they did.
As to Karen Pryor euthanizing a cat for soiling her house, I have no idea, but that does not make it any less adviseable to read her book than a few negative images on TV made it less adviseable for me to read CM's.  Unless you have a broad base of knowledge, you cannot possibly consider yourself educated.  That's why I have read books by trainers with whose methods I am either unfamiliar, or disagree in the main.  There may be items in their toolboxes that I can use.  And, I'm sure there are some in mine that  they might find interesting. 
All I can say is that I am so glad my dogs didn't end up in the home of someone who thinks Jean Donaldson is an idiot. [:'(]

I actually "Shhh" my dogs, only after using the noice and touching the neck or shoulders. My dogs got used to the noice and understand now I am requesting their attention. If using the"Shhh" as a correction combined with an occational touch for control is the worst thing I can do........well, what can I say???

Well I saw a guy at my dog park with an extremely dog aggressive dog...wearing an ecollar.  Anytime this dog looked at or reacted to a dog near her the guy zapped her.  This dog was on the way to meltdown, but as the guy told me "I've got her under control."

To the OP:  My opinions on CM are a bit varied.  I like the fact that he's got a good story, he's a good showman and he does love dogs.  I don't like the fact that he's portrayed as the "quick fix" and I'm not a huge fan of his methods.

angelique: I understand you may think the world of one method of training, and that's within your rights.  It's also within your rights to type a vitriolic response to spiritdogs post but I hope that you don't use that single minded approach with every dog you try to train.  Flame me, for all I care, but don't alpha roll or hang a dog because you don't agree with positive reinforcement. 



We satisfy our endless needs
To justify our bloo dy deeds-Don Henley

ORIGINAL: snownose

I actually "Shhh" my dogs, only after using the noice and touching the neck or shoulders. My dogs got used to the noice and understand now I am requesting their attention. If using the"Shhh" as a correction combined with an occational touch for control is the worst thing I can do........well, what can I say???

Totally agree, and after a while you dont even have to touch them anymore, i dont think that when my father used to tell me "stop running around because you will get hurt!!!" he was trying to be a bully, is the same efect that "ssshhh" does, i mean, dont you think that if my father did not say that with a serious attitude i would take him seriously and stop playing?, i think that if he was saying something like " if you keep doing it i would drawn you and kill you" then that would be like bulling, but dogs only sense you disagree with the behavior,  they dont think you are mean

MMmmm i wonder if Cesar really hurts dogs why he is not in jail by now? [&:]

My wife says "aahh!" and I make a smooching sound. It does the same thing as shhh or tssst. It is an audible marker to stop what you are doing and listen to me.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

FYI: the original poster asked people's opinions of CM, and not for a trainer or behaviourist who subscribes to his methods.

Point being, it depends on who you talk to.

The IACP as an organization supports all canine professionals, understands Cesar's philosophies and methods, and endorses him. = Cesar good.

The APDT as an organization does not support anyone who is not in line with their "Positive Only" philosophy, does not understand what Cesar is doing, and openly condems him. = Cesar bad.

People have to make up their own minds.

I like him and support him because I understand his basic philosophy and have used a similar one for over 13 years. My handling methods are a little different, but that is personal choice.

My opinion is "Cesar good". Why? Because I understand what he is doing. 

Nothing more to say on this topic.

you can still find a good trainer/behaviorist using the apdt web site regardless of their stance on CM or people who use similar techniques.

i went on the iacp site. did a search for trainers in my area. there are none registered with this site. does this mean there are no good trainers in the area? of course not, there are many good trainers in our area.

i would contend that neither listing is a be all end all. you should still look for recommendations from people you trust when selecting a trainer, and observe a class or two before enrolling in a class.

Up for spiritdogs.

I don't know. I never watched Cesar Milan so I don't know anything about him. I have heard he forced a dog to walk on a tread mill or something like that though. I am really not sure what to think about him.