Cesar Milan - Good or Bad?

I don't know a thing about him, quite frankly.  I have never watched a complete episode of his show.  I catch bits and pieces, once in awhile, at the gym.  It seems to me, logically, that if his methods weren't productive, he wouldn't be so successful.  I can't see any harm in exposing yourself to his methods, preferably through his books rather than his show, then deciding for yourself it they are something you want to try.

Don't worry, nocturnal, I won't bash.  I would submit that the more you learn, the more it will make sense to you what we are talking about. 
Personally, if you were going to learn from a traditional trainer, CM is not who I would recommend.  Try Brian Kilcommons or Sarah Wilson instead)

Brian Kilcommons is a great traditional trainer, so are the monks of new skete.

The interesting thing about these trainers is that they minimize correction and work to correct precisely, with finesse.

I don't think CM intends this, but the effect of his television show on others is amazing because it aggrandizes the correction or show of force, and makes dominance much more important than working with the dog.

I think this is cultural, I think it's about the nature of television and the nature of America right now. But the way it is making arguments erupt over what used to be non-issues on the behavior forum is really fascinating.

Ten or fifteen years ago, clicker training was only for dolphins and nobody knew anything about +R or -P or whatever... but most training methods emphasized setting the dog up to succeed, minimizing correction, making sure the correction doesn't look like it comes from you, etc.

These are all positive reinforcement ideas--you want your dog to trust you, you want your dog to understand you, you want training to be fun.

I think that most people who use traditional methods use positive reinforcement all the time. And for that matter, every time I get impatient and jerk my dog away from something instead of practicing "leave it," I am administering a correction.

In reality we all seem to be on the same team, roughly. And yet these absurd arguments are happening, complete with value judgements and name calling, and I think that is a function of CM's celebrity, and his macho, and the way he uses force to make good television.

Dog training should never look good on television.

I have read CM's book and watched his 1st season dvd and I really have respect for him for taking on problem dogs.  I have been training dogs for 14 years and I try to find new ideas and perspectives anywhere I can, because there are so many dogs with different issues.  I am also very glad that he promotes training, too many people do not train their dogs to live in society, and there are some people who need to be informed on what is/is not appropriate behavior for their dogs.  I think his show at least plants the seed for many who do not train their dogs and have lost control that they can seek help from professional trainers when they see that it can have a positive effect.  Just my opinon[&:]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

pitterchi, if you want my recommended reading list for new owners, here it is:

If you are looking to discuss Cesar Millan on a dog board, you need to be aware of the almost religious fanaticism and need to control the thoughts and actions of others which is the foundation of APDT "Positive Only" clicker-and-treat fanatics' agendas. This is based on human emotions, and money in their pocket views above your interests and relationship you wish to achieve with your dog.

Are you an independant thinker?

Lets take a look at the "recommendations":

"The Culture Clash"  Jean Donaldson : One of the primary emotional bashers of anyone who does not subscribe to her own "vision" of dog training. She was very active in trying to stop Cesar's show from ever being aired in the first place. National Geographic ignored her rants and she is pissed off over lack of control over what other poeple think.
 
"The Power of Positive Training"   Pat Miller: Very active in the "Cesar must be stopped" letter writing campaign to get Cesar kicked off of the Oprah show and tried to get National Geographic to cancel his show. Her review of his book was a total joke.

"Clicking With Your Dog"  Peggy Tillman: Haven't heard any bashing from this one, yet.

"Bones Would Rain From the Sky"  Suzanne Clothier: Great gal with good insight into the value of leadership. Not part of the Cesar bashing movement  (so far) and a lot of her ideas are in line with his philosophies.

"Don't Shoot the Dog"  Karen Pryor: Very much a part of the Cesar bashing movement. Her "dolphin training" methods do not transfer to dogs because dogs do not live within a controlled environment. Her followers are cultlike clicker-and-treat extremists who have no understanding of a dogs as a social animal, trying to live within a human social structure.

If you are interested in communicating and understanding your dog and using Cesar's philosophies and methods, I would suggest reading his book "Cesar's Way", watching his show, and visiting his website at: [linkwww.dogpsychologycenter.com[/link]>http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com]www.dogpsychologycenter.com[/link]
 
If you are looking for a dog behaviorist/trainer to help you with your dog, you will have to find one through the International Association of Canine Professionals and not the APDT. They are a group of mostly click-and-treat extremists who know little about dog behavior and Cesar does not recommend them for information and accurate understanding of his philosophies and methods...they don't "get-it".

I personally recommend "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. And...

"How To Be Your Dogs Best Friend" by the Monks of New Skete.

Good luck!

Welcome to the world of sad but true facts.

Yeah, this is exactly the hyperbole I am talking about.

This idea that clicker training is a cult is absurd, and there are lots of people on this board who use it--it works great for them. Works great for me.

To the OP: please keep in mind that it is very silly to get all Ann Coulter about dog training. Cultlike? Clicker and treat extremists? Cat killer?

This is, I believe, a function of what makes good television---conflict and black-and-white "issues" that a person can take a side on and hurl soundbytes at. IMO such non-reality based thinking has no place in dog training, regardless of how you choose to train your dog.

I took my dog to a trainer for beginning classes. He learned how to sit, stay, down, come, wait, and go through weave poles all by using +R. We house trained him using praise and treats, and the only time I've had to "spank" him was when I caught him chewing on the baseboards in the bathroom.

However, heel, or at least loose leash walking, has always been difficult for him. He's 80 pounds and even with a gentle leader, he is strong enough to pull me off my feet when he puts his mind to it. Our trainer said to find a treat and hold it in front of his nose. When he walks a few steps and doesn't pull, give him the treat and repeat. I've tried everything from food in a tube, to roast beef, and liverwurst. Nothing NOTHING worked. So he then told me to walk with the dog, and when he started to pull, do a 180 and walk the other direction. I did that for the better part of 6 months. I gave up on the fact that he would ever behave on a leash.

I started reading books. "Play training Your Dog" "Dog Friendly Dog Training" and several others. I tried each method for about 2 months thinking that he would have to get better and couldn't continue to pull. I even did a suggestion from a different trainer. She told us to tie a rope around his stomach and hold the other end. When he would pull it would get tight and hurt him so it would stop his pulling. He controlled the pain. I tried this once and didn't like it and swore never to do it again. That was worse than anything Cesar does to his dogs.

When I read Cesar's book I decided 1 more method wouldn't hurt. We started our daily walk and within the first 5 minutes the dog was walking without me having to pull or yank, or jerk the leash. He got better and better every day. There are very few and far between times when I have to use force with my dog, and that is usually when there is another dog around that he wants to play with.

Sometimes dog's need a little force. I do believe that. I spank my son when he misbehaves, but I don't beat him, and I don't abuse him. I correct my dog when he misbehaves. I do not abuse him, and because of this I can now take him to the store with me, and to the park and everywhere else I go he can go and I never have to worry about him acting up.

Ceaser is not a "god" when it comes to training. His method should be perhaps used as a last resort method. My dog is smart and learns everything else we do with +R or treats. But in the case of heeling, I reached my last straw and use the "last resort"

Loose lead walking can be very difficult for some dogs to learn without being compelled somehow.

Penalty yards can work too, but it takes the patience of Job. The problem with leash work is that there are so many times dogs need to be on the leash when you are preoccupied with other things. This gives dogs a lot of chances to practice unwanted behavior.

I wound up being pretty successful with my last dog, who was insane on a leash. We went from no control whatsoever to being able to walk her nicely with an easy walk harness... but it took three weeks of working with a gentle leader, which IMO is worse than a prong in some ways, and no walking unless we were training. That was a real bummer, but being able to focus exclusively on her walking, with absolutely no destination or distractions, was what did it.

I forgot to add my whole point:

That was such an onerous task that I can really understand why someone would decide not to do it, and to use compulsion instead. My dog was very reactive, so that wasn't an option.

We can get any +R trainer, give him/her a TV show and then we could complain about the same, it is really editable, its showing only what they want to show, they dont have follow ups on the cases, etc.

Dont worry, if you feel good or bad trying some methods you can make your own opinion []

CM does have follow-ups. At the end of the season, they go back and re-interview the clients and how things have progressed.
 

Let's not forget, Cesar gets calls from owners where the dogs have already gone beyond the usual training attempts.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique
If you are looking for a dog behaviorist/trainer to help you with your dog, you will have to find one through the International Association of Canine Professionals and not the APDT. They are a group of mostly click-and-treat extremists who know little about dog behavior and Cesar does not recommend them for information and accurate understanding of his philosophies and methods...they don't "get-it".

we found a great trainer using the APDT and clickertraining.com web sites. she knows a good deal about dog behavior and was able to help us train our puppy and work through some problems we were having with our older dog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelique
If you are looking for a dog behaviorist/trainer to help you with your dog, you will have to find one through the International Association of Canine Professionals and not the APDT. They are a group of mostly click-and-treat extremists who know little about dog behavior and Cesar does not recommend them for information and accurate understanding of his philosophies and methods...they don't "get-it".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelique
If you are looking for a dog behaviorist/trainer to help you with your dog, you will have to find one through the International Association of Canine Professionals and not the APDT. They are a group of mostly click-and-treat extremists who know little about dog behavior and Cesar does not recommend them for information and accurate understanding of his philosophies and methods...they don't "get-it".


Ummmmm, I found a great behavorialist through APDT for my fear agressive/ reactive female.  Guess it's all a matter of perspective.

If the behaviorist you find through the APDT openly supports and uses Cesar's philosophies and methods, ask them how they are treated within that organization by the "Positive Only" click-and-treat extremists.  It's pretty sad and this is not the place to find someone who uses Cesar's methods - which is what the OP was asking about.

As I said, the International Association of Canine Professionals openly supports him, his philosophies, and his methods. This is the organization Cesar recommends on his website, not the APDT.

The IACP is currently working on a specific certification which incorporates Cesar's work, while the APDT is a mostly anti-Cesar group with an inner-circle of "Positive Only" fanatics, and not a good place to go if you want to find someone who uses his methods.

Oops, double post.