crate size..

    • Bronze

    crate size..

    we just got a 9wk old Whippet puppy...she is doing great housebreaking...I take her out frequently...she has only had one accident, but it was in her crate during the night....she pooped in it.....I usually take her out about 11:30, then about every 2-3 hrs through the night...she hasn't been crated until now, and is adjusting to it pretty well, she only whines a little (not every time) when I put her in then is quiet...we had her in a petty small crate, just big enough for her to lay down, and she was whining more, so we got her a bigger crate..now I'm wondering if she has too much room...should I put her back in the smaller crate now that she is more used to being in a crate?? any advice is greatly appreciated....thanks
    • Gold Top Dog
    The rule of thumb with crate training is to use a crate that is only large enough for them to stand, lay down, and turn around in.  If they have too much room they may go to the other side of the crate to potty just like your pup did. 
    But also, I'm wondering if you are leaving the puppy in the crate all night?  He's too young to be crated longer than 3 hours without a potty break.  The equation to figure out how long they can be crated is 1 hour for each month + 1.  So since he's about 2 months old, that means he should be able to go about 3 hours. 
    What I did with my pup was put him in the bathroom with a potty pad during the night, so he would have a place to potty.  However if you're taking him out in the middle of the night, that's even better.  
    • Bronze
    I take her out every couple hours through the night....I think my crate is too big....any ideas of  putting something in there to cut down the size without buying yet another crate, since they aren't cheap.....thanks, samantha
    • Puppy
    There are dividers you might be able to buy at petsmart or some other pet store, but I am not sure if they sell those without the crates they normally come with. If you do not get a divider, you have to make sure that what you fill the crate up with is not chewable. In worst case, if you are a little handy, you could make a divider essentially yourself (if you have a wire cage). Go to a hardware store, get some real sturdy copper wire, take off the isolation and essentially braid the divider into the cage where it ought to be, from left to right and from top to bottom, so that it gives a tight mesh. Takes an hours work but costs close to nothing. :) Another option is to have, again at the hardware store, a piece of study wood cut into a square, with measures so that you will just get it into the cage. Then let them drill a hole at all four corners of the wood, get four pieces of wire, and fix the edges of the wooden square to the frame of the cage with these wire pieces.

    At that age there might be an accident every now and then, but with you going out so regularly with the dog, this will stop happening very soon in either case. Personally, I would just sit it out (I always have) - but then, I also do not crate my dogs at night. They are just fine on the floor or on the bed (if one allows them on the bed). While a convenient straight jacket, crates are neither natural nor good for a dog (I suspect that is one reason why your pup accepts a bigger crate easier than a small one), and should be used only as life demands. At night, there should be little need for them (quite a different story of course if you have to leave the house and theres no dog-proof room). But that is just my two cents of advise on this, and properly introduced a crate can and does work of course.

    Good luck [:)]
    • Silver
    I would go back to the smaller crate for now.  What are the measurements of it?  I'll bet it's not too small for her at all as long as she can comfortably stand up in it.  If it truly is too small and the other one too big can you go buy one sized in between? 
     
    I'd be worried about any metal divider that I make myself that might have pieces protruding or potentially protruding and I think with a wood divider you'd end up with the puppy chewing on it. 
     
    I totally disagree on crates being a straight jacket and unnecessary.  I think they are a great tool for house breaking a dog and the safest place for a puppy to be when you can't be supervising it.  Most dogs grow to like their crates if you've crate trained them properly.  I like my furniture and carpet and possessions too much to allow a puppy to be loose at night because when I'm sleeping I can't be watching it!
    • Gold Top Dog
    The dogs that I've seen properly crate trained choose to sleep in the crates on their own quite often.  They feel safe there.  Dogs naturally sleep in dens in the wild, and it's very much like a den. 
    Depending on how much your puppy chews you could just put a cardboard box inside of the crate to take up the extra room.  I've done that before and had no problems.  You want to find a box that is about as tall and wide as the crate so it fits snugly.  She just thought of it as a wall to the crate and didn't even touch it.  That might not work for all puppies, but you could try it supervised first and see how it works for you.
    • Gold Top Dog
    • Puppy
    Hello everyone [:)]

    Maybe I should start a new thread for this one day, but for now let me just say a few words regarding crates:

    The role of crate confinement in the etiology of behavior problems has not only been established scientifically, even simple observational skills indicate and logic dictate that they play an important role in the development or exacerbation of many problems.

    See for instance: RC Hubrecht et al, Correlates of pen size and housing conditions on the behaviour of dogs, in Applied Animal Behavioral Science 34
    JD Clark et al, Housing and exercise of dogs: Effects on behavior, immune function, and cortisol concentration, Lab Anim. Science 47
    R Coppinger et al, Kennel enrichment: Exercise and socialization of dogs, Journal of Appl. Anim. Welfare Science, 2

    Crate confinement and the dog owners readiness to use it are also directly correlated to dogs being relinquished to shelters (simply, because crates are so healthy that those dogs often develop severe problems). (see: JC New et al, Characterisitics of shelter-relinquished animals and their owners compared with animals and their owners in US pet owning households, Journal of Appl. Anim. Welf. Sci 3)

    Healthy dogs are endowed with a robust freedom reflex, and they accept crate confinement and other forms of restraint begrudgingly (exposed to crate confinement without counterconditioning, dogs often protest vigorously). As such, crate confinement is not only a condition of restraint, it also represents a loss of control. The loss of control over significant events is a necessary condition for producing experimental neurosis. Under conditions of restraint, aversive stimulation exerts pronounced behavioral and cognitive disturbances. The condition of crate confinement satisfies both of the requirements for inducing neurotic elaborations (ie learned helplessness). In plain english: the crate is a place where dogs easily get mentally ill.

    A common rationalization for crate confinement, also voiced above, is based on a questionable assumption that the dog is a denning animal, naturally prepared and well adapted for life in a crate. There exists no factual evidence to support this, and a lot of evidence to counter this.

    "Dogs, in fact are not den dwelling animals, although in a variety of canids the dam will construct a nest (often underground) for the pups. The nest is a defense against predators and protection against inclement weather... There is no door on the den which encloses the pups.... " - PL Borchelt et al., Vet Clin North Am Symp Anim Behav 12:625ff

    Although wolves do prepare dens to whelp and rear their young, they do not use such places as general sleeping or resting areas. In fact, as early as 10 or 12 weeks of age, wolf pups are generally moved from den locations to open sites where they are left while the pack goes on a hunt. (SP Young, The Wolves of North America, Part 1)

    Adult wolves do not sleep or rest in dens when they can at all avoid it:

    "After feeding intensively, wolves then seek a suitable spot in which to rest and sleep. If the sun is shining and the wind is light, they prefer open areas such as ridge tops or expanses of ice, and they will travel several miles to get to such places. There they sprawl out on their sides or bellies for several hours. During windy, snowy weather, they curl up in protected areas such as beneath evergreen trees, where they remain for long periods." - LD Mech, The Wolf: The ecology and behavior of an endangered species

    Dingos and other wild canids have similar habits. (ie LK Corbett, The Dingo in Australia and Asia).

    Crate advocates routinely espouse crate confinement as a way of life for family dogs, without fully appreciating the proven possible harmful side effects that may occur. The convenience of crate confinement and the social permission afforded by glib rationalizations has beguiled many dog owners into believing the myth wholesale. It is quite ironic that there are dog owners out there that truely believe their dog loves its closed crate, utterly unaware of the fact that this "bonding with the crate" is a neurotic condition with a host of negative connotations, not to mention the whole range of other negative side effects.

    Instead of dedicating the time and effort needed to socialize and train the dog properly, the crate has become a steel straightjacket for controlling untreated behavioral problems. Crate confinement is, pure and simple, a condition of punishment (technically more proper: loss of reward) that can be highly aversive, which is precisely why it requires gradual exposure and counterconditioning (surely something not needed if it were all natural).

    The goal of crate training should be to get the dog out of the crate as soon as possible and to use the crate as little as possible. That the average refers to dogs as "den dwelling animals" does not make them such, and shows absolutely nothing but the ignorance of the respective author (you will notice that first class behaviorists and trainers like Donaldson or McConnell will not say such a thing; for them a crate is at best a temporary tool to control and manage a problem for the time being) of the science done in the field over the last fifty years or so, clearly establishing the opposite of the previous supposition as factual.

    Let us all train our dogs to properly behave in our houses or yards, and we will have to use crates only very rarely (for instance while traveling in a car, for safety purposes). They will be thankful and much healther. [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Very scientifically stated, and is well suited to the field of Applied Animal Behavior.  Unfortunately, it is less well suited to real life.  Compare the numbers of crate trained dogs released to shelters, and owners who opt not to use them.  At our local shelters 90% of the dogs are NOT crate trained.

    80% of my clients that come to me with behavior problems do not crate there dogs.  The 20% that do crate have behavior problems unrelated to crating. 

    I am most curious about your last statement:

    we will have to use crates only very rarely (for instance while traveling in a car, for safety purposes).

    VS.
    crate confinement is, pure and simple, a condition of punishment


    How do you think it is going to go if a dog has not been thoroughly crate trained, and then only rarely put in a crate during what is already a high stress activity.  I would bet this wouldn't go well.

    If crate training is done properly it is not punishment at all, and SAVES millions of dogs lives.  Can you imagine our shelters if owners chose, as a whole, not to crate.  It would be a disaster.

    It just isn't realistic to expect owners to raise dogs without crates these days. As trainers and behaviorists we have to do what it takes to keep dogs in homes, and advocating for less crate training is a mistake.
    • Silver
    Well said Mic.
     
    When I got my first dog I resisted crate training for the usual reasons...it's cruel to the dog, I want him to have plenty of room to play while I'm not home, etc.  Once I started to really learn about dogs and training them and became a very dog savvy person I realized that crates are a useful and important tool for training them and keeping them safe. 
     
    I hope that the people who come here looking for information and help will see the overwhelming amount of good advice given about crates and ignore the "crates are metal straight jackets" babble.
     
     
    • Puppy
    Hello Mic [:)]

    Quite contrary to agilebcs' opinion, I do not think that your critique is "well stated". [;)] Let me tell you why.

    First off, stating personal experience and anectdotal evidence does not make for sound science. There actually have been nationwide surveys (as mentioned briefly) which clearly show that, as a nation, crate training and the often concomitant overuse of the crate, are a prime factor in the etiology of behavioral problems for which dogs then are relinquished. That there are a vast number of untrained dogs should come as little surprise, given that many dogs in shelters are simply strays (I could point out that I know that from personal experience, but hey, you know why I won't! [:D] ).

    Secondly, you nicely tracked down a dichotomy that, on superficial viewing, appears to be mutually exclusive. However, it is no such thing. You will notice that I do not argue against crate training a dog at all. I argue for properly crate training them (which I am sure you know from experience, is often not the case). I furthermore argue to use crates as sparingly as possible (again, something you hardly can object with, can you?). Lastly, I cite evidence that behaviors and attitudes contrary to those maximes leads to severe behavioral problems in dogs. Crating is primarily a condition of punishment, which can be partially reconditioned - as an behaviorist you are well aware of that I trust.

    Thirdly, that many clients or people relinquishing dogs have dogs that are not crate trained does not allow - as a simple matter of deductive logic - the conclusion that the lack of crate training is what causes the problem or relinquishing. All it might tell us is that the owner possibly has no idea at all how to handle and train a dog, and probably should not have had one in the first place. Of course we could crate train that "problem dog" (where the problem in most cases is on the owner's side - again, I am sure you know that from experience also) and - hokus pokus - problem solved. Or is it? Surely not, but it is nicely managed (no more eating the carpet while the owner is gone!). Proper training, and that is all I am saying, can teach the vast majority of dogs to not engage in problem behavior while outside of a crate. The crate is a temporary tool to be used until the situation is resolved.

    Lastly, let me say this on your "it is not realistic" approach: if one cannot train a dog properly or is not willing to get help from someone that is able to train a dog properly, then I guess one should not get or have one. This is on the same level as those dog owners with border collies (which I am sure you know from experience) that tell you that they only have time to take out their dogs 5 minutes in the morning and 10 in the evening... and then want you to fix the dog's 'misbehavior'. [:@] I believe, and that is I think more a philosophical standpoint than a rational argument, that if you cannot take care of your children, you ought not have any. If you cannot take care of your dog - with all that goes along with it - do not have one. Training a dog to not needing a crate very often is not very hard (as, again, I am sure you know). All it takes is acquiring a little knowledge and skill, and the will to put some time into it. I find that quite a realistic demand for the priviledge of owning a dog.

    And Agilebcs... to disqualify other people's opinion (backed up btw by objectifiable data and not anectodal just-so stories) as "babble" while applauding I would guess anything that perpetuates the misinformed rationalizations and the widespread overuse of crates (to make this clear: I do not believe this is mic's intention at all, but I do believe that it will be taken by some as a further excuse), is not only poor form, it is precisely this fixation to anachronistic ideas and resistance to change, that was and is of major import in explaining why many practical changes we today espouse as 'humane standard' took decades to get recognition.

    To sum up: Putting anecdotal evidence and "real life" objections up against verifiable data is not a good argument against the overuse of crates or its deleterious effects. Maybe I did not make it clear enough that I do not say not to use crates whatsoever. I am arguing against the "overuse" of crates (that is, dogs being holed up 16h a day for instance), while at the same time pointing out that it is very easy to train dogs to hardly need crates at all. I am quite sure that, having clarified my maybe unprecise statement like this, we actually do quite agree. [:)]

    Have a great day everyone :)
    • Puppy
    Oh, and thank you very much for the feedback Mic. This is an important issue well worth discussing, which is why I already had considered starting a new thread just about this. There are pros and cons to many things in life, and it is always good and important to see what arguments can be brought up by the other side, even though I believe we are not really on different sides, or which arguments for ones own standpoint one is not aware off yet, if there is new research one does not know, and so forth. Ok, back to work now. [:)]

    Tststs, how could I have forgotten the positive feedback?! [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Science is one thing, and actually working with the dogs and owners and trying to solve there problems is another entirely.  Encouraging people to crate there dogs less is hurting more than it's helping.
     
    I will continue to encourage people to use there crates as much as they deem necessary for there dog to fit there life style.  I encourage everyone on this board to do the same. 
     
    The majority of dog owners probably shouldn't have dogs, but they are going to continue to.  And for us to expect them to use crates as little as you would like just doesn't make since.   It's our job to figure out how to help them the best we can.  You have to have realistic expectations of the dog owners, and the substantial training it takes to get through a dogs adolescence with out a crate is WAY outside of what most owners are capable of. 
     
    You know what happens when raising a dog becomes inconvenient...the owners give up!  When that happens we haven't done our job. 
     
    Putting anecdotal evidence and "real life" objections up against verifiable data is not a good argument against the overuse of crates or its deleterious effects

     
    The science only matters if it can be used effectively in the real world.  And in this case...it just isn't realistic. 
     
    Do you work with clients doing behavior modification on a regular basis?  Or do you spend a lot of time reading journals?  Just curious.
    • Silver
    And Agilebcs... to disqualify other people's opinion (backed up btw by objectifiable data and not anectodal just-so stories) as "babble" while applauding I would guess anything that perpetuates the misinformed rationalizations and the widespread overuse of crates (to make this clear: I do not believe this is mic's intention at all, but I do believe that it will be taken by some as a further excuse), is not only poor form, it is precisely this fixation to anachronistic ideas and resistance to change, that was and is of major import in explaining why many practical changes we today espouse as 'humane standard' took decades to get recognition. 

     
    In my opinion, your repeated "a crate is a metal straight jacket" mantra is babble and I'm entitled to feel that way and state it.  Take me to task for bad form if you'd like and feel free to throw as many big words at me as you'd like also.   
     
    In a perfect world all dog owners would be well informed and willing and able to train their dogs to a level in which they could be trusted to always be loose in the house.  Heck, in that perfect world they'd probably eat lovingly prepared meals and never wear a leash or a collar.  It's just not realistic.
     
    Maybe I did not make it clear enough that I do not say not to use crates whatsoever. I am arguing against the "overuse" of crates (that is, dogs being holed up 16h a day for instance), while at the same time pointing out that it is very easy to train dogs to hardly need crates at all.

     
    I think anyone who understands the use of crates and uses them properly would argue against their overuse; but while it may be easy to train dogs to hardly need crates at all, the average dog owner does not have the skills or ability to do so.   Most of the people who post here looking for help with house breaking are not people who have house broken many dogs or had a lot of experience with dogs in general.  These are the people for whom information about crates is valuable and IMO in a lot of instances it may be the difference between them getting thru the house breaking process and having a dog that they will have for many years or ending up with a dog that goes off to the local kill shelter by the time it reaches adolescence.
     
    I know that I am an above average dog owner but I also have to work to support myself and leaving 4 dogs home alone during the day loose in the house is not an option that I will ever consider no matter how highly trained my dogs are. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I hear that!
     
    I can't imagine leaving my 8 dogs loose in my house while I am at work.  That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
     
    My dogs are trained very well, but I still wouldn't risk it.