crate size..

I consider my dogs fairly well trained.  But, if they are home alone and bored, heaven know what they'll find to get into.
 
Additionally, for me, there is a concern about fire.  I have SIX german shepherds.  In case of a fire, they are going to be scared to begin with, and then when firefighters come crashing in wearing what has got to look to the dogs like some sort of wierd space suits....heaven knows how they would react.  Crated, they can be pulled, crate and all to safety, and I don't have to be concerned that a snarl might earn them a fireax to the head.

Hello there []

I think I have said what I needed to say on this topic (someone might actually bother one day to either read some of the references given, or even better, make sure that whenever he or she uses a crate, it is only done when it is unavoidable and not just convenient - then it was worth the effort already), so just a few last comments to tie up lose ends will have to do (well, unless someone comes up with another argument than "but its not possible in RL" - while I know it is).

Mic, I think we agree on the basics: "The majority of dog owners probably shouldn't have dogs, but they are going to continue to." Where we differ is in how we approach such people. That is quite alright. As I stated in a previous post, ten dog trainers often will have ten different opinions on any given subject. []

The science, as it is science taken from 'real life', of course highly matters in this instance. Therefore I stand by my argument that less crating would be a good thing (I am not saying "no crating") and why it would be a good thing. I also stand by my assertion that it is very well possible.

As you ask about my background, let me just say that I hold a number of academic degrees in related fields. The experience and knowledge gained there helps me to swiftly get to scientific resources - for one thing because I might have read them beforehand (I started my education with a master in zoology, where I had for the first time the opportunity to study canids extensively), for another, because there are search programs that help you to quickly find the articles you need on any given subject. Then it is just a matter of quickly looking them up for relevance and data. I also, besides pursuing my academic career and training my own dogs, do train and counsel people with dogs (deliberately worded this way [] ), try to contribute to the continued education of established trainers, do some non-profit work, and so forth. I think this gives me a vantage point from where I can see both sides of the coin, which I find particularly important (another issue where we agree I would guess from the manner of your question).

You are saying "I can't imagine leaving my 8 dogs loose in my house while I am at work. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard." Well, I am not sure where you heard that from, but I am quite sure not from me. [] First off, there are very few people in the general dog owning population owning 8 dogs. So I do not think you can compare yourself with others here, nor do I think I was talking at any point about 8-dog households. All I said is that one should not regularly have dogs holed up 16h a day in a crate. I cannot seriously believe you think differently there. Furthermore, having one or two dogs (as most people do), it is very well possible to train them to behave just fine without being crated while one is out at work. If you do not believe that, you just come visit and I will show you. []

As to agilebcs, I do not this quasi-ad-hominem style of discussion is very conductive to progress. If someone likes to sit in a motte-and-bailey castle of preconceived notions from which nothing will dislodge or challenge their comfortable self, then that is their choice and I could not care any less.
There is no reason however to demean others who dare to disagree. Nobody says that you are not entitled to your opinion, and yes indeed, your postings (at least in this thread) do show "bad form". That is quite alright also, but do not hope for anyone taking you serious this way - which might be a pity, because I believe that every person has something of value to add, and for that it does not need agreement in any other way than that of treating one another with some basic respect. Put differently, one will take Mic's (or Glenmar's )objections seriously - even though one's view might not jibe with them - precisely because they present them for the most part in a disengaged and not disparaging manner. If you tell someone that what he says is "babble", then that might satisfy your psychological makeup, but that particular discussion - where discussion means an earnest conversation - ends right there.

Glenmar, this is admittedly a conundrum. On the one hand, I can see your point. On the other, the crate is a jail. If the fire starts in the room with the crates, or underneath it, there is no way for the dogs to get away from it to temporary safety. Now do not get me wrong. I am not saying that you are false. I am saying that you have a valid objection that is, given that there are also circumstances where the crate could be a malus, not quite as clearcut, but certainly worth taking note off.

In that sense, my thank to Mic and Glenmar for the shared thoughts. []

In my case, we have a walkout basement and the crates are in the family room IN the basement.  The only fire BENEATH my basement would be the fires of hell, so I think we are safe there.  No, they couldn't get to temporary safety.....but loose they would likely break through the double paned glass doors, tear over the fence and flee.  We are in the country and have an acre of land between us and the road, but it's a busy road and people use it as if it is a speedway.....with no regard to common sense.  So there is the danger of the road, danger of getting into barbed wire, danger of getting into a farmers field and being shot......I'd rather they breath in to much smoke than run free to die.

As to agilebcs, I do not this quasi-ad-hominem style of discussion is very conductive to progress. If someone likes to sit in a motte-and-bailey castle of preconceived notions from which nothing will dislodge or challenge their comfortable self, then that is their choice and I could not care any less.
There is no reason however to demean others who dare to disagree. Nobody says that you are not entitled to your opinion, and yes indeed, your postings (at least in this thread) do show "bad form". That is quite alright also, but do not hope for anyone taking you serious this way - which might be a pity, because I believe that every person has something of value to add, and for that it does not need agreement in any other way than that of treating one another with some basic respect. Put differently, one will take Mic's (or Glenmar's )objections seriously - even though one's view might not jibe with them - precisely because they present them for the most part in a disengaged and not disparaging manner. If you tell someone that what he says is "babble", then that might satisfy your psychological makeup, but that particular discussion - where discussion means an earnest conversation - ends right there.

 
Gee, thanks for putting me in my place (I think anyway...certainly your education and ability to quote scientific data on crating dogs is no match for me!) [] 
 
Can anyone tell me where to find this motte-and-bailey castle?  I'm in need of a vacation [] !!! 
 
 

Hey, since you need a vacation anyhow, you can come here (help me pack) and keep an eye on the dogs, keep the house from catching fire (help me pack) put it out quickly and effciently if it DOES catch fire...and keep the dogs happy while (help me pack) I go crazy between houses!  I'm a good cook, so at least you'll eat well!

Great offer!  Only if I don't have to watch your dogs (or mine 'cause they'd have to come to) spend too much time in those metal straight jackets!!!  []
 
Sorry, couldn't resist!  Gotta go home now and release my dogs from their imprisonment...oops there I go again...somebody stop me...wait, is this a result of my psychological makeup????

Haha, much better agilebcs []. Good to learn that your "psychological makeup" includes a funny-bone. [sm=peace.gif]

Maybe we all should take a page from our dog's book sometimes (particularly if you own breeds akin to labs, as I do, but theres a silly one in every dog I often think), and take the 'its all fun and games!' approach to life. [sm=party.gif]

On that note, we should all just grab Glenda's offer while its out there (are you worried yet?? [sm=devil.gif] ... then she not only has 6 german shepards to worry about while she is gone, but - much worse! - us! []

P.S.: This forum is a bad thing - at least if there is work you should get done. [&:]

For the most part I skipped over the metal strait jacket stuff.  I'm sure there was some information in there, but between trying to translate it into terms that make sense to me, and getting past the long references to what was actually being said, it was kind of exhausting.  Long winded to say the least.  Agilebc, I understood.  Glenda and Mic, I understood.  Polymatheia... got bored before I got to the point.  I could read a ton of books on training and behavioural sciences and still not know half as much as Mic who lives it everyday.  And I can talk in circles, throwing big words in with the best of them.  I 've done it when I was feeling superior, but for the most part I don't really like to make people feel stupid.

Back on topic.  My biggest dog is being weaned out of his crate now.  He only uses it for periods of time when I'm not sure how long I'll be.  He sleeps outside of his crate at night, either in bed with me or on the kitchen floor in his favorite place in front of the fridge.  But his crate is not punishment for him.  Its a place where he can go to chew on his bone or just take a nap without a puppy chewing on his ear, and he goes very willingly.  When he was smaller he would sit at the door and whine when it was bedtime until I let him downstairs to go to his crate.

Hello Candace

Is this a pattern here in this forum to go at people for stating a view? It starts to look like it. If you do not like my style of writing, don't read it. That is not a reason however to put it down wholesale.

Was the post a little longer? Of course. It is a contentious topic, so any responsible comment on it that veers off the main road perpetuated in the big-business-dog-book-market ought to cover some bases via references.

You do not like my terms or they make no sense to you? Well, for instance I am using the terms dog trainers or behaviorists will use when talking to one another. That avoids misunderstandings that arise from using imprecise language. Maybe that is not what one should do on a dog forum?

And to insinuate something along the lines of me wanting to make other people feel stupid or just throw words around for the heck of it ( "And I can talk in circles, throwing big words in with the best of them. I 've done it when I was feeling superior, but for the most part I don't really like to make people feel stupid." ) is simply impertinent. English is not my first language, and if I understand them and find them normal and intelligible without having to "translate" them, so they should be just fine for any native speaker I figure.

Any more out there who prefer taking stabs at people instead of at issues?

As I've noted before, I understand you a little better than before. Indeed, you didn't start with calling anyone stupid or wrong, you were relaying info and sources to point out why excessive crating might be a problem and that, while you were not disallowing any crating, you also didn't believe in using it at every turn.
 
I would say, however, that this forum is informal and ad-hominem by it's very nature. Not all of us here have graduate degrees in behaviorism, nor should it be required for someone to have such credentials in order to post their opinion or real-life experience. Just as Foster gets, results, Cesar Milan gets some results, and you get some results. I have differed in opinion with some on how to correct a dog. Mine responds to the scruff. It is part of his breed characteristic. But that doesn't mean my method will work for every dog, every time.
 
So, let me stretch a definition a little bit. Any training, such as obedience, is akin to a crate. We are asking to dog to conform to our desires. They are responding to our alpha status by obeying a vocal or visual command. And crating can be a training tool. And has proven to be such in several instances, though, true, it must not be used as a "god-in-the-gaps" approach.
 
It would be interesting to find out how the studies you quoted arrived at a conclusion that surrendered dogs with behavioral problems were initially crated. When most people surrender a dog, I doubt they are also including info on how often or how long they crated their dogs. And, agreed, without sufficient ability to train their dog aside from putting them in a crate, they are, in some cases, out of their depth.
 
We got our dog when he was 1 year and 2 months and I don't know if he was crate-trained. He was and is house-broken. I have never crated him. He has a huge backyard and that is where he is when we're both gone from the house for more than an hour. It's actually safer doing that. Then, he can go to the bathroom as necessary, run and dispel some energy, and, should the house catch on fire, he's not inside. If worse came to worse and he escaped through a disaster, he may survive long enough on his own for me to find him. Plus, he is wearing an ID tag with my phone number on it.
 
But not everyone has our situation. There has to be some give and take. For some dogs, they are safer in a crate when alone. If it is approached in a positive way, I don't think they suffer problems from it. Agreed, if it is only used for punishment, which I don't think anyone here does, then it would have negative consequences.
 

Hello Ron []

I fully agree that everyone should speak and talk how they feel most comfortable with (for me, that depends about what I am talking). If I do not like the way a post is put into words (has happened before), I simply do not read it and move on.

About crates we probably, as you indicate, agree on the most part anyhow. Having your dog outside while you are gone surely is a good way to solve this as well. Let me thank you for your calm and balanced words (watched CM last night, eh? [] ).

On that issue, *I* actually watched the CM marathon last night (partially as a result of our exchange I decided to give it a second look, trying to approach it afresh and with an open mind). I have to say that while there still were some things I simply find outrageous (there is for instance absolutely no reason to use physical force and passive violence to treat fear-aggression), there also was quite some good in the show (for instance some basic guidelines that the average dog owner might find easy to remember and adhere to, and that will get them some results; I also have the feeling he genuinely cares). But that is maybe the stuff for a new CM thread (you happen to know an ongoing one I have missed? this forum is too large to look at everything []).

Have a great weekend! []

hello all...
i am to new dogs and  know nothing and so ....if some one could help me..... what is a crate and why it is used. ?
hope u will not get angry with kind of qusetion.....................
thanks in advance for the answer
 

A friend of ours has a Great Pyrenees. Her crate was her safe place. Even with the door open. When one of us would arrive and she was unsure, she would return to the crate where all is okay. Now, at 5 months, 22 inches tall, and 60 pounds, she sleeps outside, as befitting her breed. Not only does she not need the crate anymore (she's too big and she could just carry it) but her owner has been working on training since nearly day one. She has a fenced in yard and a huge day pillow is her bed, though she's likely to sleep directly on snow or ice. So, I think crates serve a usefull purpose and I think they are a more humane way to potty train a dog than the old school, a combination of rolled up newspaper and shoving the dog's nose in the pile.
 
A dog, like any animal will inherently avoid going to the bathroom right where it lays. So, at first, when you know it's time for puppy to go, you take them immediately from crate to outside. Once they learn to associate outside with potty, then, eventually, they will get more free run of the house. People here have used crates to calm down dogs that got a little too rambunctious. If the crate is their safe haven, they will calm down. And for some, it may be safer physically to be in a crate, due to whatever environmental circumstances.
 

In response to the original post.  We bought a crate that was far too large for our lab puppy.  We put a paper box that fit in the back and then had his blankets and stuff in the front.  It made it small enough and as he grew, we used smaller and smaller boxes.  I'm surprised now - knowing him better - that he didn't eat the boxes, but he never touched them.

Saved us from buying two crates. 
 
Just my 0.02$...

thanks Stef and to a couple of others who actually replied to the original question.....so far I haven't had to make the crate smaller and she is doing better, no more accidents....but at least I have a few ideas if I need them...our Dobe is helping show her the ropes too......