Crate schedule?

First I'll answer your question:
Yes, a 3 - 4 hrs stretch in a crate is pefectly fine. A lot of dogs are left much longer and have no problem.

Secondly I'll give an opinion:
I personally agree that a safe room is ideal, especially for long periods. At 14 weeks, she should be able to hold her bladder for 3 or 4 hours and to be honest, I would expect her to be sleeping for that period of time as well. What is your routine with her before you leave for work? Is she getting enough exercise? Is she going potty before you leave? Remember she is fully rested come morning and needs to really do some high energy burning in order to be tired. Same for your noon hour. Use the time to play her out. Number One rule - "A tired puppy is a good puppy!!"

So for now, crating her may be best. You don't want to establish bad habits or peeing and chewing for sure. But work on her housetraining and exercise and hopfully she can return to her safe room.

Good Luck

The general rule of thumb that most people use for how long their pup can go before needing to be let out is how many months they are + 1. So at 14 weeks, she's three months old, so that works out to be 4 hours at a time max.

Thanks for the advice - would love to hear what others' experience has been with this too.
The books we have read all suggest that one can/should leave a puppy in the crate for the bulk of the day, with breaks at certain intervals. Something makes me uncomfortable with that.

We definitely try to exercise her before leaving for the day - she only recently got her 12 week shots so it should be safe (we hope) to take her to the nearby dog park to run around. She always goes to pee or poo before we leave her, but her bladder control still does not seem to be so good. She knows to hold it in the crate but not, it seems, in the safe room.

When Tootsie was that age I also had the great idea of putting her in the laundry room, she quickly became destructive and had regressed in her potty training. So it was back to square one for me.

I would say NO crates at all at this stage.They would have to be the most abused,overly used dog accessory ever invented [&o]  No dog should be crated for longer than the owner can last without needing the lavatory.
Alot of people want a dog because they love having it to come home to, and the love and companionship it gives, yet don't seem to give a thought to its needs for love and companionship when they leave it locked up for hours and hours on end while they are working, then again for hours of an evening if they have a busy social life, same at weekends if the dog dosen't go with them. Every dog has to learn to be left for some time during the day, there are times when it happens and nothing can be done about that. But to have one knowing you are going to leave it locked up on a daily basis for hours on end, and I mean 8 hrs plus traveling, well I can't understand that.

As for a crate schedule,well all i can advise is anyone who wants to crate their dog all day should find a small closet, just big enough to stand and turn, then spend the day in it with no books, TV, games or other entertainment. And no toilet of course.,and then decide if this is still the best option for their dog????
 I think the 'modern' dog owner see the dog as being like a car or a toy - ie when you've finished with it, you put it away in the garage/toy cupboard and forget about it... [&:]

I've used crates in the past,but only with new pups,only overnight,right next to my bed withing touching distance,with outside toilet trips regularly,and i use this regime for as shorter time as humanly possible!After that the crate gets put away and is never again seen by that dog.

Juneaudog-Listen to your gut,crating a dog for up to 6-8 hours per day,or 16 hours if they also get locked in at night is not condusive to caring pet ownership,and IMHO amounts to abuse.It seems Great Britain also thinks along the same lines as there is a new law coming in over there to BAN the crate,other than for transport to shows,car rides etc.Dont know how they are going to police it,but i think it's a step in the right direction.

I think crates are wonderful. Especially during the potty training and chewing stages. My Casey gets crated while I am at school during the day. He's about 11 months old now, and has no problem with it. When you aren't home, your dog is most likely sleeping anyways, so I see no problems with crating him. It prevents bad habits, like chewing, before they get out of hand and you end up having to buy a new couch. That is just my personal opinion, remember - it also varies from dog to dog too.

I think crates are wonderful.

Wonderful for who? The owner? I certainly cant see a dog thinking "oh goody,lock me up for 8 hours in this "wonderful" cage,and then when you go to bed,lock me up for another 8 hours,hooorahhh"

I agree there are times and places for crates,and only for very,very short periods and as a last ditch resort,after ALL other options have been exhausted. This reminds of things like electric collars,prongs etc.,these are all available to make the owners life easier,not the dogs....

And lets not forget,a busy dog is a tired dog,i wouldnt expect my dogs to sleep the day away after sleeping all night,without a good vigorous off leash workout before me leaving.And even if i do miss out on their morning walk,they have run of the house and secure yard whilst i'm away,so they can play and explore to their hearts content.In other words they can sleep when they so choose,not because i have forced them too.

If you go to overseas dog forums,you will notice that "crates" and "Americans" are synonymous,it makes me really ashamed [&o]

My dogs love their crates and will take themselves off for a nap in there during the daytime.  If the doors are shut I get pleading looks to open them and let them in.
 
I would agree that they are over used and abused by some owners, but you can say the same for ANY training aid or tool - are check chains, gentle leaders, tie-outs, doghouses, prong collars and shock/spray collars to be banned as well???  To ban crates completely is throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Banning crates would be like banning cots and playpens for babies and toddlers. 

I have 6 dogs and NO crates.....I don't like them, why would you want to be in one all day while your owners are gone, left to stare at the walls, no chance to potty if nature calls, no playing with each other...as for the one I hear " They can hurt themselves" yes they can but I see pets with crate injuries t the vet hospital, much more than injuries from being loose.
I just got my last dog on Saturday she is a 2 year old Malinois that was raised all her life in a crate or kennel, I was told she couldn't be trusted outside the crate, had to eat in there etc....well its been almost a week and she sleeps on her bed or with us, hasn't had an accident and loves being able to do what she wants, yes we had to remember to put things away as she did chew up a few things, but we punished ourselves not her ( our other dogs could care less and watch tv and sleep and play ) we try not to be gone more than 4 hours but sometimes work is long and we are gone 8 hours, we get home and let everyone out and play, when we are home the door stays open and they can come and go as needed ( fenced yard)
I don't like the cage a dog all day method if you are that particular about your place, maybe you needed to buy a hamster instead of a dog 

I don't "cage all day".  I do "cage all night" though and they don't sit there staring at the walls looking pitiful.  They sleep.  I certainly wouldn't cage all day and all night, I think that's too much.  But I can hardly shout an owner down who cages all day for 8 hours when I cage all night for 8 hours - especially of the cage-all-day owner has made provision for the dog to have a break during the day, which I certainly don't do unless it is a new puppy. 
 
Most owners couldn't have a dog if it was stipulated that they mustn't leave it for more than 4 hours or that they couldn't work full time.  And most dogs just can't cope with being left for a working day without help.  And the crate is one way to provide that help.  There are few enough homes to go round as it is..... Would the people who are against crates narrow those homes down even more???  That seems totally counter productive to me.

Edie, I think you are thinking like a human, not a dog.   Dogs are den animals and most find it comforting and rewarding to have a small, cozy space of their own. 
 
Have you ever spent time with a properly crate-trained dog? My dog has free run of the house now that he's older, but he chooses to sleep in his crate (door open) almost every night and he chooses his crate for naps as well.  He has soft fluffy beds he could sleep on, but he *loves* that crate. 
 
Of course an owner can abuse the crate and leave the dog in it too much.  But that doesn't mean the tool itself is bad.  People can leave their dog outside in a doghouse for too long also, but that doesn't mean we should outlaw doghouses.  There are lots of good reasons to responsibly crate-train your dog. 

are check chains, gentle leaders, tie-outs, doghouses, prong collars and shock/spray collars to be banned as well???

 Shock collars & prong collars are banned in England and other countries already,and have been for a fair while now. No idea what a tie-out is,a bit of rope to tie a dog to a tree or inaminate object? Please dont get me started on dogs being tied up in  yards [&o]

Dogs are den animals and most find it comforting and rewarding to have a small, cozy space of their own. 

Yes i agree,but to come and go as they please,once that door is padlocked shut,it turns into a cage,not a den.

Anyway,i just wanted to put my view on crates across,not really up for a huge debate.I can not and will not ever agree to locking a dog in a cage for hours on end,especially not when it's purely for the owners convenience.

ORIGINAL: Edie
I would say NO crates at all at this stage.They would have to be the most abused,overly used dog accessory ever invented [&o] No dog should be crated for longer than the owner can last without needing the lavatory.

This goes against everything I have read about crate training and housebreaking new puppies. All of the books I have read (and many resources on the Internet) strongly suggest a consistent schedule that involves a significant amount of time in the crate while the puppy is being housetrained. Several books (by fairly reputable authors, in my opinion) make it clear that the puppy spends the bulk of their time in the crate, apart from short breaks (midmorning, lunch, afternoon, etc.) and walks/playtime under supervision.

If this really is abuse, well, I guess a lot of the books being published about raising puppies are advocating abuse. I have a hard time believing this to be the case.

It is clear that crates can be abused and I'm sure some people do. The question is what constitutes "abuse" of a crate. It has never been my intention to crate the dog "all day" for anything like an 8 hour stretch. I am rearranging my work schedule to accommodate the puppy's needs and am coming home on lunch breaks, leaving later in the morning than usual, and coming home earlier than usual. My original question was what is a reasonable amount of time for the puppy to be in the crate at one time.

Eager to hear your thoughts about this and thanks for starting what looks like an interesting debate!

what is a reasonable amount of time for the puppy to be in the crate at one time.

I would say,no longer than 2 hours Max.

make it clear that the puppy spends the bulk of their time in the crate

Does this not sound wrong to you?
The bulk of the puppies time should be spent playing and spending time with their family,socialising in the outside world and generally being able to be a carefree baby.I would also say this applies to adult dogs aswell.Being locked up in a cage for hours on end is no kind of life for a dog,especially not a pup who hasnt achieved full bladder control yet.

I notice no-one has obliged to spend a day locked in a cupboard,as underlined in my previous post.Do this everyday for a week,or even a couple of day's,then see what your attitudes towards crates is. [] Surely whats good for the dog,is good for the owner []