Practical Applications of Force-Free Methods

I've also read that mouthing/gripping is a herding dog thing, but it's not consistent with what I've observed among dogs at play or in working environments. I've seen lots of non-herding dogs do neck mouthing as an invitation to play. Sometimes it seems dominant/pushy, othertimes it seems puppyish. What's their play like, besides this neck mouthing? Is there any kind of play that Mia enjoys with your two shepherds? The shepherds don't mouth each other's necks? How do the shepherds initiate play with each other? What gestures do they make to try to control each other?

My own herding dog has never neck-mouthed another dog, or a sheep, for that matter. She pokes with her nose to initiate play interest, or tries to nip butts to exercise control. [] The only time Ixa has "gripped" as a means of control, is when she's been extremely frustrated with my handling failures in the ring, so she bites rams' tails and grips.

If it is a herding behavior, I wouldn't worry about interrupting their instincts. The instinct is to control, and interrupting that is exactly what you want! It would be better for your shepherds to exercise that controlling instinct on sheep, rather than on their pack-mates. []

ORIGINAL: ron2

Also, is there absolutely no food that just really turns B'asia on? That's certainly possible and I know of a dog who's greatest reward is to chase the frisbee one more time.

 
It is so easy to give advise without experience backing it up.  When giving advise we should always ask ourselves, would I do this home?  That may cause you to think through what you write.
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FWIW, Using food as a distraction, redirection, or reward is temporary and is used to bridge to a behavior you want, not a behavior you don't want.  The not want behavior is always available to the dog and I can see the dog reverting back to the old habits.  I like the idea of a suit of armor on Mia but I also think once it is off the dog will revert back to his old habits.  The long term solution is to work on Mia and increase her self esteem. 

I think it's definitely herding behavior. I wouldn't use an e-collar lightly, but I think there are times when it can be helpful. Long distance correcting would be one of those cases, particularly if you could set up situations where she didn't know you could see her since that's when she's doing it.

i did something similar with mandi when she was "herding" saler nipping at his neck. the collar fixed the nipping within 2 ball sessions.

btw, the collar i have (in storage now) has a positive reinforcement tone that one can use for recall. it may also be set up for 3 dogs.

I love the idea of sweet little Mia sporting this bad-looking collar!

HA


well, in a week, two, or whatever, return to your thread here and let us all know how things are progressing.

It still doesn't seem like people are thinking force-free or the original idea.  If so then we would not concentrate on stopping and/or punishing the behavior but almost solely on the distraction part.  Whenever b'asia gets trigged to go after mia she needs to be redirected immediately to the exact same thing everytime and something that she likes.  Such as going to get a specific toy and mouthign that instead of mia.  Instead of concentrating on punishing for grabbing mia you immediately redirect as quickly as possible and before she even makes it fully to her feet.  That way even when you aren't there and she feels the trigger to grab mia she will automatically feel like doing the other behavior like grabbing a specific toy.  The problem is finding something she likes that is there when you aren't so she can take out her urges and energy on that instead.  Then you have to reinforce it over and over and over until everytime it happens she thinks of the behavior you wanted her to instead of going for another dog. 
 
Not that I'm completely against the punishment part but just because I can tell Zami not to chase kitty while I'm around doesn't mean it will work while I'm not around.  However because she's never allowed to chase kitty and I redirect her to attacking a toy she's getting to the point where when kitty runs across the room and she wants to chase something she goes and attacks her stuffed polar bear toy which is about the same size as the kitty.  For now though I still usually lock the kitty in the bathroom while I'm gone so that there is no chasing while I'm not there until the behavior is 100%.  Meaning everytime she feels the urge to go after kitty she grabs her toy and mauls that.  I do still use a "NO, Leave kitty" but then throw her stuffed polar bear across the room and spend 5 or 10mins using it to play with her.

ORIGINAL: ron2
This is also why I don't just collect pets and add willy-nilly to the group. Not that anyone here has.

Man! ron! If I didn't know better I'd say that sounded like a passive aggressive kick up-side the head! [sm=help.gif] Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

The truth is, Jaia was doing the same thing to Mia and I brought B'asia in to be his playmate so he'd leave Mia alone (we were planning on another eventually, just got B'asia sooner than planned). It helped A LOT. Now Jaia is focused on B'asia and they're a good match for each other. But B'asia has endless energy and when Jaia is tired of playing, she goes after Mia.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
What's their play like, besides this neck mouthing? Is there any kind of play that Mia enjoys with your two shepherds?

No. She's tired of being their whipping girl. She's starting to avoid them altogether. But it's her state of mind that's bothering me. She's not a happy camper. The Shepherds do mouth each other's neck, but not for long. They're pretty evenly matched and won't put up with it. To initiate play, they usually get a toy and parade it in front of the other. Then it becomes the greatest toy in the world and they fight over it. There's a lot of lying down and "teeth wrestling". Lots of open mouths and teeth flashing, but not much contact. It's mouth to mouth.

Sometimes it seems like Mia's the toy... [&o]

ORIGINAL: DPU
The long term solution is to work on Mia and increase her self esteem. 

I agree. We've been doing that for 5 years! [sm=lol.gif] She's just really passive!

The ecollar is still an option but we won't be using it unless we totally exhaust everything else. It's my own hangup, I know.

Mia is in here with me and the others are closed out. She's having surgery this Thursday to have a lipoma removed, so I'm going to have to be real careful with her anyway for a while.

And I'll be sure to post here to let people know how it's going. Thank you all SO much for your input. I really appreciate it.

ORIGINAL: ron2

And totally aside from that, I don't think all animals will get along just because I want them to do so. They don't have union cards. This is also why I don't just collect pets and add willy-nilly to the group. Not that anyone here has.

 
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Great post, Sham85! Said it well, very well. If she isn't allowed to do it, but is taught something else to do instead, chances are, she won't do it when nobody is around to stop her.
 
PS--Love Zami's name, too. I wonder if I know where that came from . . . []

o. She's tired of being their whipping girl. She's starting to avoid them altogether. But it's her state of mind that's bothering me. She's not a happy camper. 

 
I wondered that, too, even though, obviously, I don't know that since I don't live with you. It's not fair to Mia to be the whipping girl. And I'm not being mean--just hurrying here on the keyboard.
 
I know what you mean, too, DPU, about Mia needing some confidence but it seems like everyone goes after her and until she can see that they will leave her alone, it does seem like things will be more successful if their behavior is managed first so that it never ever happens again. (Easier said than done, I fully admit.)

What's their play like, besides this neck mouthing?

Depends on the herder...  But, one thing I have noticed fairly consistently is that they are only comfy with realio trulio friends getting in to their personal space.  They tend to like parallel running, chase games, and jumping, but not wrestling or body slamming (they find Labs and Boxers uncouth LOL).  They mouth each other, sometimes on the neck, sometimes just open mouth to mouth.  They poke, and they play bow.  I rarely see herders accepting anything that even remotely resembles humping from any other dog.  And, they tend not to like their line of sight interrupted.  Of course, all the toys belong to them, and many herders will round them up and stand over them. 

Man! ron! If I didn't know better I'd say that sounded like a passive aggressive kick up-side the head!

Don't worry, if ron was going to kick anyone upside the head, he isn't passive aggressive, he'd tell you straight up - you'd have uber big cyberheadache LOL.  []

It is so easy to give advise without experience backing it up.

The use of a reinforcer powerful enough to change a dog's perception or behavior is good advice.  Behavior modification is only possible if the dog is willing to work for the offered reward.  And, humans are unlikely to change a pack dynamic between dogs, the nuances of their language being what they are.  What is possible is to establish the human in a position of leadership and control over the dogs and manage their environment to minimize scuffles.  It is when humans try to decide doggy dynamics that the most problems arise, since more often than not they support the wrong dog.

Man! ron! If I didn't know better I'd say that sounded like a passive aggressive kick up-side the head!

 
I agonized for a moment, fearing that might sound harsh, when it wasn't meant to be. I am, however, practical as I can be and as you are. You have the situation as it stands. One that I thought I might be in when DW wanted to take in a stray cat. Once again, the luck of the Irish smiled upon us.
 
 

Good post, Sham. But the OP has determined that clicker and +R training methods are not going to work and we're trying to help her with what she has now.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

Great post, Sham85! Said it well, very well. If she isn't allowed to do it, but is taught something else to do instead, chances are, she won't do it when nobody is around to stop her.

 
Chances are is not good enough.
 
FourIsCompany, I wish I could express myself better in writing to communicate how I resolve residence dogs and foster dogs issues in my house.  I do believe my presence or how the dogs view me and give me respect has a lot to do with it.  Plus I also believe that dogs communicate with one another and 'gossip' about what the house rules are.  Fives years of trying to increase a dog's self esteem is a long time and it is sad.  Trying observing and redefine what you see.  Question whether the cue is Mia moving.  Question if Mia is not reacting, I suspect there is a reaction that lets Basia continue the behavior.  Observe what the other dogs are doing to avoid Basia behavior.  There is something unique going on. 
 
My foster dog Marvin who has true SA has been with me over a year now.  I consider his behavior to be totally managed now where he is a perfect little house guest.  I can't really account for all that I did to accomplish this because I never gave up trying different things.  So many deadends but so many paths to take.  This next year I am working on extinguishing the SA with the goal of Marvin have free reign of the house when I am not home.  I am also going to start moving Marvin around to other homes so that his adoption transition will go smooth.  Focus more on Mia and try different things based on your knowledge of she reacts to both positive and negative treatment.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Good post, Sham. But the OP has determined that clicker and +R training methods are not going to work and we're trying to help her with what she has now.

[sm=asking03.gif] What would motivate you to moderate another member's thread with a statement like that?

I like the idea of a suit of armor on Mia but I also think once it is off the dog will revert back to his old habits. The long term solution is to work on Mia and increase her self esteem.

Good point, as long as it doesn't involve a fight where Mia has to best B'asia, which is sometimes the case in unmonitored dogs. And while some may think that marked and rewarded behavior may not solve the problem, (even though I've seen a generalization where always identifying the good things with what I want cause a general obedience to me in other circumstances), I'm also not sure that the hard to bite collar will correct it. To be fair, sometimes a problem is not solvable and I say that to cover any and all attempts and observations. In such a case, which may not be this one, I would recommend segregation, which is not an option in this case. And this thread is about a particular case in point.

I would still advocated marker and reward training for smaller approximations of the goal and work at that steadily until a generalized rule is observed that there will be no mouthy herding of Mia. Though you have a good point that Mia may be giving a subtle cue. And that a different reaction in her might cause a different reaction in the other dogs. And that the info could be well served by shifting focus off of B'asia to see what else might be triggering. Is it any time of day or night? Close to meal time? Etc., etc.
 
Just a few thoughts, based on my 1 dog, 1 cat experience.[] Anyone else's mileage may vary.