Practical Applications of Force-Free Methods

In a situation like that I'd use "leave it" and some sort of  "go to your place" command. "Leave it" to get B'asia to let go of Mia and put her attention on you instead, and the "place" to just seperate them for a couple minutes and let Mia go to wherever she was going unharassed. My purely anecdotal non-scientific experience is that this sort of thing can become a habit, so you won't for the rest of their lives have to "leave it" an "place" at B'asia, she'll figure out that every time she tries to treat Mia like that she is not allowed to and gets sent somewhere else to wait. I also personally use attention-getting sounds and no-reward markers so I'd probably use "ah ah!" to get B'asia's attention (and I think this is where a lot of people stop--they use an attention getting sound like "NO!" and the dogs stop what they were doing just as a reaction to the sound, but don't get any further information after that) and then have her "leave it" and "place".

Thank you houndlove for responding.

B'asia KNOWs it's not ok to do it. She doesn't do it when she thinks we're around or watching her. She does it when we're in the other room or when the dogs are out running around in the fenced in area. Same with Jaia. He already knows we don't like it, but he does it when he can. And Mia has taken to no longer going out with the group because it's no fun for her to have 2 Shepherds hanging on her neck. I have begun taking her and Cara out and keeping Jaia and B'asia in on the jaunts and Mia really enjoys that. But it's twice the work for me and it doesn't solve the problem the other 23 hours of the day.

The way I see it, if I don't step in to protect Mia, I'm not doing MY job as their leader and protector. This is where the dynamics of having more than 2 dogs to deal with gets tricky.

I'm thinking of a studded collar for Mia but I want to try the bitter apple first. My thought process is that I want to make NOT biting Mia more satisfying to the Shepherds than the satisfaction of sinking their teeth into her flesh around the neck. (They never even come close to breaking the skin, they're just mouthing, but they're big and forceful and Mia's just trying to be a happy little dog.)

It is a habit with them and now they know not to do it in our presence... But what now? Anyone?

Four

Hektor is also doing this with Gunnar and like you he has figured out that I do not approve so he does not do it around me, but will when out running in the yard. Hektor i 60+ lbs now and outweighs Gunnar and I to would like to get this under control before he becomes 100+ lbs.

I hope the bitter apple works for you, it has not for me. My understanding of it (after I bought it and tried it) is the dog needs to chew some on the item in order to really get the taste, and the mouthing that he does on Gunnar is not sufficient to deter him.
To stop him (in my presence) I stepped between them, told Hektor no and made him lie in his bed. I also use a spray bottle for when he was to far away and that works very well.
I may try the studded collar as I had not thought of that. When I let them off leash I have been turning a prong upside down and fitting it over Gunnar's flat collar. I have noticed that he does not try and mouth Gunnar at all when he is wearing the prong. Problem is I cannot leave Gunnar for any lenght of time if he is wearing a prong.
 
the prong has the rubber tips so Hektor cannot poke out his eye if he does try and garb it

I'm wondering if a studded (spiked) collar is considered cruel... Isn't that +P? 

A couple things that may help or lead you to a new idea.
 
One of my dogs a 40lbs old english bulldog did the same thing.  Her cue to attack the nearest dog was me getting up out of a chair.  A 'NO' command would stop her in her tracks and then all would be ok.  What I observed was when Nessie, the bulldog would go after a Great Dane, the Great Dane would ignore and Nessie would stop a few inches before contact.  If it was another dog and that dog reacted in any way to Nessie's charge, Nessie would attack.  Maybe you can also work on Mia not to be reactive to Basia. 

Thanks DPU. Mia doesn't react. She sits there and takes it. Or she slows down if she's running to keep from losing her skin. B'asia's cue is when Mia moves. That's all it takes.

I'm thinking now of trying a studded collar. That can't be comfortable for the Shapherds to bite and no one would get injured as they might with a spiked collar.

B'asia constantly goes after Mia. Whenever Mia moves, B'asia thinks that's her cue to run up alongside her and full out take Mia's whole neck in her mouth. Mia, being Omega, WILL NOT put B'asia in her place. She does nothing. She suffers.

How can I teach Basia to do something different? I have bitter apple on order.

I really appreciate any input regarding this specific example or other specific examples. What I'm not interested in is hearing, "Teach her TO do something." That abstract instruction doesn't help.

But that's exactly what you have to do here. You have to prevent/manage the behavior from taking place since it's only making B'asia better and better at what she's doing (and reinforcing in Mia, too, that she needs to just expect this to take place).

First, stop it from happening again--through management: drag lines, separation--whatever.

Second, you have to then focus on teaching B'asia that NOT focusing on Mia is better than focusing on her. You reinforce her for NOT paying attention to Mia and for doing anything but paying attention  to Mia. (I didn't say this was easy, mind you, since a "No" and a collar grab really is easier, but it does pay off.)

That's what we all mean when we say teach her to do something rather than say "NO" for going after Mia. She can learn a "Go to your place" command, too, whenever Mia enters the room, or whenever Mia moves, for example.

The sky's the limit here.

Thank you, nfowler. Here's a little more information. B'asia is NOT food motivated, I can barely get her to eat her dinner. I'd like to know how, specifically I reinforce her for NOT paying attention to Mia and for doing anything but paying attention to Mia. I already praise her for it. If Mia gets up and B'asia doesn't go for her, I praise B'asia.

They don't wear collars, so there's no collar-grabbing here. []

But, Four also said this behavior doesn't happen in her presence, only when she's out of sight.

What I'm hearing from nfowler, is that management would include not letting the dogs be together at any time when Four is not present and actively managing the situation.

Is that correct?

What I'm saying is that you should not be letting B'asisa improve her, uh, herding [] skills on Mia any longer. It doesn't matter what the reinforcer is--might be something to "herd" for B'asia--but you have to change her behavior around Mia.
 
And, yes, for starters you should manage that interaction so that it never happens again. (Lofty, I know, and "never" never happens, but totally minimize it.) Then, you should work on having more control over B'asia (so that someday, whether you are there or not, she'll "manage" herself.)
 
I know a man whose herder went ballistic when he saw kids playing with soccer balls. Very scary. She went after everyone so that she could herd. She learned, in small increments, to lay down and hold her down around kids--whether her handler is around or not. I don't know what her reinforcer was (for learning this) since I didn't ask--but you know what motivates B'asia; you now have to figure out how to use that to change her behavior.
 
That's what's meant by "teaching her to do something" and by "force-free" methods. You have to do more than give commands, unfortunately--you have to change the way she reacts when she sees a certain behavior (trigger).
 
Personally, I wouldn't necessarily praise my OCD dog for leaving the squirrel alone--I praise him when he is doing something incompatible to focusing on squirrels.

content removed - force free methods only per topic

(an e-collar produces force. btw, so does bitter apple - hehehe - the force of an unpleasant smell)

Not being food motivated certainly complicates things. Is there something else she loves, a favorite toy, chasing a ball, tugging? I agree that the key will probably be some level of management while you work on the training part, which can take a lot of time. Distract, and redirect, train an inconsistent behavior and reward heavily, plus a lot of time and patience. Corrections might be in order too if she's bothering Mia that much. I'm a very positive trainer, one of those people who would rather teach my dogs what to do rather than what not to do, but I'm not above grabbing my dogs by the scruff with a firm NO! when they go after the cats. (Keefer!)

But, still all this responding requires Four's presence, and she's already at that stage, having it already managed in her presence. So what is the means to transfer the reduction of behavior when she's not present.

Isn't it more efficient and reliable to just put on the collar that makes the self-rewarding behavior not so self rewarding anymore? Wouldn't using the studded collar be as force-free as doing the rewards-based classical conditioning?

what would be a few concrete examples of other things to do - given a cue by mia that signals b'asia to move in on her?

food doesn't work, per carlas's description.