Practical Applications of Force-Free Methods

Would a studded or pronged collar (upside down with rubber tips) really be force since the intent is for the dog that is grabbing to not receive his "jollys" and not for the purpose of the human grabbing or correcting?
 
 The dog enjoys the feeling and joy of grabbing the other dogs neck. The other dog is non reactive and so therefore does not "tell" the grabbing dog that this is "rude" behaviour. Therefore the studded collar or prong would in effect be doing the same thing in that it would be giving the biting dog an "unpleasant" result when he bites. (I say bite here meaning mouthing).
 
 Does not seem like force to me since the human is doing nothing at all to cause the unpleasant result.

I don't know if it's because it's Sunday or people have decided just not to respond to my posts (I know some are across the pond), but I'm having a pretty hard time getting an answer to this. [sm=director.gif]I posted in General and have one response about the collar.

My husband wants to get an e-collar and I'm saying no (lost coyote, I think it's hilarious that you posted that in this thread! [sm=lol.gif].) So I think a studded collar is going to have to be the next thing. I'm simply not willing to keep the dogs separate when I can't be there. I just thought I might get some practical advice on a specific problem as to how to use +R only in my case.

+R only is good theoretically, I agree. And I use it at EVERY possible opportunity. But it's only fully effective in teaching a dog TO do something.

dgriego, I don't consider it force any more than when Cara hauls off and growls or snaps at them to let them know it's NOT ok to do that to her. Instant negative feedback. Life isn't always pleasant. And picking on others can cause unpleasant consequences.

to cause the unpleasant result

 
The unpleasant result has to be strong enough to stop the behavior in one or two attempts or it will be just nagging.
 
What others are talking about is training and commanding an incompatible behavior. When Shadow wants to chase after Jade, sometimes, I think enough is enough. I call off or here and Shadow responds because getting his reward is more rewarding than chasing the cat. Granted, I am lucky in that Shadow likes food, though he doesn't eat a bunch at one time. The tastiness is more of a factor than the amount.
 
So, we have to find something that B'asia finds more rewarding than controlling Mia. And, of course, the hard part. Deterring that behavior when you are out of sight. With a correction, it has to be within 1.5 seconds for the dog to connect the dots, if at all. Being out of eyesight makes that functionally impossible.
 
I think it's going to require segregation for some time. And timing. To reward B'asia for every time she stays put or remains calm when Mia gets up. That is, we have to change the meaning of Mia getting up.
 
It is possible in in certain cases, to get a dog to ignore breed traits, at least for a while. Shadow is a natural at pulling and running faster than the wind. And I had beautiful LLW (Loose Leash Walking) and a really tight heel today in a place we hadn't done it before thanks to roasted chicken that kept popping out of my shirt pocket.
 
Also, patience.
 
Also, consider limitations of breed, personality, environment. Consider limitations of corrections or +P. Though it is difficult, I try to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Problem is, B'asia doesn't see what she is doing is wrong. For her, it isn't. Also, maybe there's a place somewhere where she can get her herding "itch" scratched.
 

B'asia KNOWs it's not ok to do it. She doesn't do it when she thinks we're around or watching her. She does it when we're in the other room or when the dogs are out running around in the fenced in area.

I hope you have considered that B'asia may simply have learned that a certain behavior is not done in the presence of humans.  But, she may not have learned that she should not do the behavior in the absence of humans.  It isn't always the way WE tend to assume - that the dog is trying to "get away with something".  So, I hope that isn't how you meant that statement.  I'm just trying to suggest that what we think dogs have learned isn't always what they have really learned.

Another salient point is that if your "corrections" were working, the dog would not exhibit the behavior either in your presence or not.  So, in training an incompatible behavior, we need, as ron has so succinctly suggested, to change the dog's idea of what is more rewarding, since dogs do what works for them.  That's where the trainer imagination comes in. []

Thanks to you both for answering.

ORIGINAL: ron2
The unpleasant result has to be strong enough to stop the behavior in one or two attempts or it will be just nagging.

Totally agree. That's why my husband's consideration of an e-collar. I HATE that idea, though! B'asia's so sensitive, I certainly couldn't be the one to operate it, yet I'm the only one I would trust to do so. I'd just like to aviod that if I could.

What others are talking about is training and commanding an incompatible behavior.

I know. I call her off and reward her for doing something. But I want her to STOP. So I don't always have to be present.

That is, we have to change the meaning of Mia getting up.

That's something I can work on.

It is possible in in certain cases, to get a dog to ignore breed traits, at least for a while.

I didn't know this was a herding thing until nfowler mentioned it. I don't particularly want to train out a breed trait. That's REALLY hard work!

Also, patience.

I've got tons. [sm=happy.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I'm just trying to suggest that what we think dogs have learned isn't always what they have really learned.

I totally agree.

Another salient point is that if your "corrections" were working, the dog would not exhibit the behavior either in your presence or not. 

I know it's not working. If it were, I wouldn't be here. [sm=happy.gif]

ORIGINAL: ron2
The unpleasant result has to be strong enough to stop the behavior in one or two attempts or it will be just nagging.


Totally agree. That's why my husband's consideration of an e-collar. I HATE that idea, though!

 
I know of one member here that uses remote collar in training her hounds in field trials. She also trains them on rabbits, etc., in her rural location. When the dogs are 100 yards out, out of site, baying so loud they can't hear a clicker, she stims for recall. And they will break chase, which is one of their favorite things to do, being hounds, and recall. The trick for her is to have the stim so low that it merely feels like a tingle or tap. A physical touch, so to speak. It is associated with recall and bits of lovely, raw meat. It's not so much a punishment as a physical boundary.
 
In use as a punishment, the stim would have to be unpleasant, not just a tingle. And it would have to be administered out of sight. But B'asia may not generalize like you might think. A hard stim may not make her think to leave Mia alone. She may think it is Mia who caused it and then the kid gloves are off. OTOH, with low stim, you could associate it with leave it or off. In which case, and this would take some time, she has to associate the stim with leave it and a reward. If it were food, just out of eyesight, you would have to catch her on the first flinch of a launch, stim, and when she breaks off, throw or release the reward, still out of sight. That way, she can connect the reward to leave it even if you are not present. Even then, you wouldn't need the collar for that. Another advantage to concealing yourself is that when Mia gets up and B'asia does nothing, you can release a reward for that, still out of sight.
 
Also, is there absolutely no food that just really turns B'asia on? That's certainly possible and I know of a dog who's greatest reward is to chase the frisbee one more time.
 

I've only had her for 3.5 months, but she does love raw hamburger... Let me think about this and work on rewarding her for doing something different when she doesn't go after Mia.

I'm also going to get the studded collar. A herder in General just said it works great.

(lost coyote, I think it's hilarious that you posted that in this thread! .)

that's why i killed my own post - lol - because after the fact, i realized - oooopsie daisey, carla wanted a no-force solution.

i did PM it to ya tho and it does work VERY fast.... just in case you run out of options.


ron2 - how would food rewards work when the problem crops up when carla is not around to treat the dog for not going after mia? she styated that b'asia has learned to behave properly when carla is present and accounted for but when the dogs are by themselves, the problem begins to surface.

would carla need to be hiding behind the bushes or something?

if the problem occured in carlas presense, then driving b'asia off with another herding task would work (such as chasing a stick the moment she goes after mia)

-curious about the food thing

I love a guy who says, "oooopsie daisey"... []

I think it's definitely herding behavior. I wouldn't use an e-collar lightly, but I think there are times when it can be helpful. Long distance correcting would be one of those cases, particularly if you could set up situations where she didn't know you could see her since that's when she's doing it. It would be really important for her to wear the collar around a while before activating it so she doesn't become collar smart and only behave when she's wearing it and she also shouldn't associate it with you, or even worse, the presence of Mia. It should be a mystery where the correction is coming from so it's associated specifically with her actions.

We used a citronella collar on Cassidy briefly when I brought home Elvis as a kitten. She was almost 80 pounds, about a year old, and still a bit of a wild child. She was also very leash reactive, so I was looking for options to having her leashed, knowing that it would only ramp up her excitement further. After a period of several months of keeping Elvis confined in a separate room and bringing her in for daily visits where I would give her a special treat, a cheese filled bone that she only got in the cat room, and reward her heavily for being calm around the kitty, I progressed to letting him out into the house for short times, with Cassidy wearing the collar. I had put it on her every day for a week first so she was used to wearing it. I could keep it turned off so the battery didn't wear down, and then casually turn it on while petting her before I let him out. If she charged him I zapped her with the collar using the remote, which I had also had clipped to me most of the time. She's stop and sniff the floor, and I could reinforce the heck out of her for stopping the chase. Eventually I was able to just say "find it" and toss a handful of treats at her and she'd stop the chase. Since I knew that I couldn't either correct or reward when I wasn't there to supervise, they were never alone together while I worked on training. It wasn't an idea situation, I had to go into the room to spend time with my new kitten, but it ensured his safety while I got them both used to being around each other under controlled circumstances.

Putting a prong collar on her and yanking the crap out of her would certainly have accelerated the process, but I was very mindful of not using aversives because I wanted the presence of the kitty to ALWAYS mean good things for Cassidy, not bad things. So basically she could spend as much time with him as she wanted, (and she found him VERY interesting!) as long as she obeyed the rules, and then if she didn't - oh well, too bad, she was banished from the room. It was a very long slow process, taking many many months, but they did become buddies. I don't know if any of this is helpful, but you do have a challenge ahead of you.

Is there ANY treat B'asia likes? With Cassidy we sometimes used chicken or turkey baby food, which she could lick right out of the jar. It was yummy enough, and we saved it for those times when a really high value treat was needed. She was also so ball crazy that we could call her off pretty much anything instantly by saying "Cassidy, BALL!" and then throwing it. Of course something like that does require her to do it in your presence. I know you don't want to separate them, but if the only time that chasing and locking onto Mia was posssible was when you were there you might get more opportunity to work on training. And it wouldn't have to be forever.

I'm also going to get the studded collar.

 
That would be management, IMHO, which a number of people have to use. Perhaps, though, as you hope, it will be a self-teaching exercise in that it will become more rewarding to not herd Mia. OTOH, watch out for chipped fangs. And this could be a case of one dog out of a population that won't generalize the leave it command, whether you are present or not.
 
As you say, segregation is not an option. This will certainly define the parameters of your choices.
 
Is it then force to have the collar on Mia in order to deter B'asia? Your hands would be off. The reward of out of sight leave it is lack of physical discomfort from biting on a stud. Or, will the stud not be enough of a detterent? Case in point, I've heard of some using an e-fence to keep their dog in a yard. Some big dogs run right over the buried line and suffer the stim anyway to keep on after their target. Partially because they weren't trained as to the meaning of the stim. Others may simply not get it, such as Ratsicle's Akita, Ogre.

Ron--as usual, thank you for posting more eloquently and thoroughly what I was trying to say. You're great and you know exactly what to do here--including how to even interpet me!
 
N

Besides, ron, if I did go with an ecollar, I'd have to use it on Jaia, too. Because he does it, he's just better at knowing not to do it on the presence of humans. []

I just don't feel confident enough in my abilities that I could use an ecollar effectively. And I will spend time with them teaching them about Mia's new collar so hopefully, they'll not go after her when they see it on her. I got a 2", 3 row. black, leather, studded collar. I love the idea of sweet little Mia sporting this bad-looking collar! [sm=headbang2.gif]

I love the idea of sweet little Mia sporting this bad-looking collar

 
"I'm a punk rocker, yes I am" - Iggy Pop with new Teddy Bears
 
Just the same, don't stop looking for positive methods and don't assume that a correction will always have the desired effect or intent. In some ways, the collar may be self-correction. For example, some dogs only need one encounter with a porcupine to learn to leave it alone. That is a harsh lesson and in the wild, which we are not, it is often a swift teacher. The difference between the quick and the dead is how quick one learns.
 
Timing is everything, whether it is rewarding or correcting.

Here's a Dunbar article on hierarchies.

[linkhttp://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/hierarchies.htm]http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/hierarchies.htm[/link]

And totally aside from that, I don't think all animals will get along just because I want them to do so. They don't have union cards. This is also why I don't just collect pets and add willy-nilly to the group. Not that anyone here has.

But Ratsicle found a solution to her Ogre problem with strict segregation and an established order of who is where and gets what, which seems to ease the dis-ease.
 
ETA: actually I kind of cross-posted there. Some have asked or wondered if I would take on another dog, a mate for Shadow, even though he does play with the cat, sometimes. There, I try not to fix what doesn't seem broken. And I could certainly be wrong. Another dog might socialize Shadow even better, or not. His mate as a puppy was Duke, a JRT that was older than him. He would play gently with him and let Duke eat out of his bowl and Duke could charge Shadow all he wanted. Occasionally, Shadow would lightly swing a paw that would send Duke flying and Duke would come back for more. Duke was re-homed, got out of his new yard and was, they think, killed by a coyote. If I had known that was his fate beforehand, I would have tried to take in Duke.