Initial Conditions

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

Any questions? What is JQP? [8D]

 
JQP = John Q Public, the group that includes the average dog owner.

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

what do you guys think?

I am a rescuer of the shelter dog and a loud advocate.  I have fostered over 30+ dogs over many years and each has their own story.  A few of their stories I have told on this board and I believe educated the crowd with my experience in Separation Anxiety, Emanciation, Heartworm, Spay/Neuter, Littermates, Female dogs of the same age living together, Aggression, Dependencies, Clicker Training, dog placement, kill vs nokill shelters, pack behavior, and so much more.  My experience is rich because of fostering and observing the pack as members leave and new members come in.  A fascinating watch.

What do you guys think?  With so much dog knowledge and experience of individuals on this board, why do they not take in a shelter dog as a foster and enrich their dog experience.

DPU.....good post......[]

I can't wait to foster again!  I'll probably have to volunteer for a rescue group though b/c I could never go to a shelter and pull out dogs...I wouldn't be able to choose!  Working at the shelter is enriching, but it's also hard b/c you see them come in at the worst moment of their lives, you see them get sorted into the adoptable ones and the goners (I've seen dogs come through intake that I've been excited to work with and then never see them again), you spend so much time with them but you get NO say in who takes them home.  You never hear from the new owner again unless the owner returns them and then it's back to square one....I want to foster so I can have a say in the dog's future. 

As for the initial condition of Kenya, don't get me started!!  She can do everything that's usually hard for "normal" dogs (rock solid recall, flawless loose leash walking, no chewing, no barking, leaves cats alone, willingly sleeps in crate with the door open, stays in the yard with no fence or physical boundary....).  But she's got a lot of mental baggage and of course it will take ten times longer to "fix" her than it did to "ruin" her.  Ah well, who wants a perfect dog anyway?  Where's the challenge and the satisfaction with all the little daily improvements?  She'd have to eat my face off before I agreed to give her back....

.:. [sm=bravo.gif] .:.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

what do you guys think?

What do you guys think?  With so much dog knowledge and experience of individuals on this board, why do they not take in a shelter dog as a foster and enrich their dog experience.

 
 I do. And yes every dog lover should do this to the extent that they can. I drive my family nuts most of the time. As I cannot see a stray without trying to catch it. If I catch it I cannot take it to the pound (unless I think it is unsafe around family). I have always been the collector of lost and injured animals (since very small).
 
  At some point this week I will be picking up a GSD mix who's name is Wolfie. He was brought home by a 16 year old boy who found him (at around 8-10 weeks) he was cute and fluffy and lovable, soon he began to pee on the floor and poop on the floor and he grew tall and gangly. For the past 4 months Wolfie has lived at the end of a chain in the backyard. His water is full of dirt and flies (if he has water) his coat is matted to the point where he will need to be shaved most likely and I am uncertain if he gets regular meals. He has never been socialized in any shape form or fashion. I hope to be able to clean him up, give him some social skills and find him a home or who knows maybe keep him. I will probably change his name.

Well, I can tell you why I don't foster.

I do plan on doing it in the future, perhaps for American Black and Tan Coonhound Rescue, perhaps just for a local shetler. But right now both my husband and I work full time and I don't feel that I would be able to be effective as a foster parent to a new dog. I'm pretty much at my limit with the two of them. Also, Conrad's mental health is a priority for me and lots of changes in his life tend to set him back with his anxiety and reactivity issues. He does great with a very predictable routine with very predictable very solid-tempered Marlowe, but a revolving series of unknown dogs coming through the house would not be good for him. However, hopefully a long long time from now, I know that Marlowe would make a great foster brother and I'd be more than open to fostering at that time.

In the mean time, I have volunteered at my local shelter, walking dogs and taking them to adoption events and doing some basic training with them. And of course I have opened my home on a permanent basis to four wonderful animals, three of which would be considered "special needs" (both my cats are FIV+, in addition to Conrad who falls under the "not for the faint of heart novice owner" category).

I have fostered before. But I have a 'special' dog of my own. Cara is simply not very physically healthy (dysplasia and other joint problems), but she's a tender, unique entity and she's my husband's heart dog. She does not do well with other dogs in the house. It takes her a Looooong time to adjust to newcomers. Each one's a roller coaster for her. I've brought in 2 permanent members and she's still adjusting to B'asia. I'm just not going to put her through it any more. It's not worth the ups and downs for her in my opinion.

I would LOVE to foster, but I'm pretty sure I'd keep about half of them and my husband would put a stop to it anyway. []

Ah, "initial conditions" - the enigma of the rescued dog LOL!  Well, having had a few of those over the course of my life, I must say that the same thing applies to the rescued dog as applies to the purchased or home bred one.  They are who they are - all have their own intrinsic personality, and some are closer to the breed standard for temperament than others.  Take Sequoyah - whose mother is a duly sworn member of the "First Church of +R" (I found that remark hilarious, considering that I am not a member of a mainstream religious group).  She is, according to her breed standard, "reserved with strangers", and very talented at herding and guarding.  The latter tendency is why she wears a muzzle at the vet's.  She is not aggressive, but she is certainly reactive, and one never knows when she might react to a painful needle stick, etc.  It's far better to practice prevention than to invite an incident.  She does not need muzzling in the waiting area, and it only goes on once we are in the exam room.  She gets squeeze cheese the whole time, and thinks all her "aunties" are great!
My hound was one whose history I have no clue about.  All I know is that he came intact at age 2 1/2, had scars on him that looked like they could have been caused by claws or by buckshot, no one knows, including the vets.  He had calluses from laying on the concrete floor of a shelter, and he was about one step from the kill shelter, because his foster mom got a new boyfriend who didn't like him.  He whines, he slobbers only when he drinks, and he's a comfort freak.  All he knew was his name and "sit".  If you don't think clicker training works, and ron hasn't convinced you, you should meet this guy.  His name was changed, and he does a lot more than "sit".  He has a CGC and a dynamite recall (how many hounds do you know that come even when their noses say go?) and he is one of the best therapy dogs I ever met.  He does, however, still hog the couch)

I haven't seen ANYONE say or imply that clicker training doesn't work. I KNOW it does! Have you seen this? This is Jaia. (forgive hubby's timing. He was learning, too)

[linkhttp://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/CaraMia_photo_album/?action=view¤t=Puppy-HubbyTraining.flv]http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/CaraMia_photo_album/?action=view¤t=Puppy-HubbyTraining.flv[/link]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
 If you don't think clicker training works, and ron hasn't convinced you, you should meet this guy.  His name was changed, and he does a lot more than "sit".  He has a CGC and a dynamite recall (how many hounds do you know that come even when their noses say go?) and he is one of the best therapy dogs I ever met.  He does, however, still hog the couch)

 i think it works, i have seen it work, know many who use it and it works.... i also know a high drive vizsla who will come when his nose tells him go, and he was not trained with a clicker so you can achieve reliability both with and withour a clicker

Has his name always been Shadow

 
His name was Shadow when we got him and I assume that either his first owner named him or he was named before, as Shadow is on his first shot records. My nickname for him is Pretty Boy which, of course, is obvious.

then i realized one day that the weird feeling i was having about others staring at my dog was more about them and less about me cuz i found myself on occasion looking at other peoples out of control dogs as well.

 
People who's dog has charged mine usually say they've never seen their dog do that before. I say they haven't been very observant in watching cues. This one person in my town has a GSD/mix that he would allow in the front yard off-leash. And that dog came charging at us, teeth bared and not trying to say a friendly hello from a block away. His reply was that his dog would never bite or attack another.
 
Oh really? Does that explain the "I'm gonna tear you head off and crap down your neck" charge, then? Anyway, the law was on my side and he didn't like that because he's a sheriff's deputy and thought he knew it all. But things smoothed over and he no longer allows his dog off-leash.
 
To answer Corvus, true, even some dogs that received all the training and socialization may still show some idiosyncracies, which I take as proof of personality and including some breed trait, too.
 
To Spiritdogs, honestly I wasn't thinking of you as the other person who has to muzzle a dog at the vet's. But thanks for sharing that.
 
IMHO, muzzling as a preventative is something I would classify as management and not necessarily a correction, though it is a physical restraint, but so is a leash and harness. So, I can't exactly classify it as use of force. It can prevent use of force.
 
Using a sedative for dogs at vets is not without precedent. If that is the way I eventaully go, so be it.
 
But we've crossed a mountain range in 7 months. I started using the clicker in February. Once, in April, I took him to the vet for an evironmental allergy and got meds for that. By that time, he was able to come into the vet's office and only got skiddish when the vet came within eyesight. Last Monday, we were in the vet's office and it didn't bother him to have the vet in close proximity. But he didn't want to go into the examining room. So, we went outside to the cattlegate they use for intaking horses and cows. It was a lucky spot last year.
 
And actually, the Friday before, I had an early day and went to the vet's to try and get his vacc updated then. The vet was gone to Ft. Worth for his yearly continuing ed but his assistant was there, a guy capable of giving vacc shots. I had Shadow muzzled and he was okay until the guy would step around the rear flank. We were outside and he lit up a cigarette, which I thought would relax Shadow, since I smoke. But no go. So we figured I would wait until the vet was back since Shadow has known him from prior visits.
 

To answer the question about fostering or adopting another dog right now, there are some logistical things to consider. Right now, we have a fairly stable balance. DW, me, Shadow, and Jade, the cat. Another dog would change the social landscape. Shadow knows his place and that brings comfort. When I leave in the morning, I have a standard ritual. I give DW a peck on the forehead. Next, I rub Shadow on the side of his head and whisper in his ear "Be a good boy." On the way out, if Jade is available, I rub her on the head and "stay out of trouble." Always, in that order. It's not so much the words as it is the social order and social contact and it reassures that things are as they ought to be.

Also, DW and I both work. Shadow may be alone in the yard for 6 hours. Though he's capable of jumping the fence, it's not all that easy and he has yet to ever do it. I think he likes it here. Having another dog might require crating that other dog. For upto 6 hours. Shadow has roaming privileges but he might see getting to stay inside as a privilege that he should have. Plus, what if there was a problem and I wasn't there to referee? There are times when DW doesn't go to work until 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon. On a hot summer day, she will leave him inside. He's good for 4 hours, by my estimation. In the winter, he's outside quite a bit by his own choice.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
If you don't think clicker training works, and ron hasn't convinced you, you should meet this guy.

[sm=asking03.gif]

I didn't come here to be anyone's project, convert, "JQP", or student. Or to be convinced, cajoled, or "saved". And, I generally resent being treated like that. Though I'm curious and generous enough to give anyone a listen, I'm extremely picky about the experts I choose to follow. My best teachers have let me find them, haven't trolled for me in any way. And, they're genuinely happy for me when I discover my own truths, even when my discoveries are contrary to their own.

Ron said:

ORIGINAL: ron2
In the end, we're all after the same thing. An affectionate, rewarding relationship with our dogs and the world at large, as best as we can make it.

[sm=bravo.gif]

I love reading about how people think and feel about their dogs, how they problem solve, what criteria they use, what worked and what didn't, what sounded weird but felt right, what sounded right but felt wrong ... It's entertaining, educational, thought provoking, inspiring. Posts that just bark orders, criticize others, are condescending and snotty, however, leave me frustrated, blocked from good stuff, defensive, shut down.

Some of you watched me go from knowing absolutely nothing about dogs, when I joined this forum (to learn how to handle my untrained/unsocialized 1 year old rescue dog), to ... where ever it is I am now, 9 months later, with my happy, well-adjusted highly social pet. You may recall that I began as an novice in the church of R+ [sm=angel.gif] .... why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I be attracted to something "positive" rather than "negative." ... LOL! [] I faithfully studied the way, till it left me short, unequipped, directionless, at a loss. Does that mean it has no value for me? Poppycock! All information has value for me, operant conditioning, as well as ideas and methods about leadership, energy, the use of pressure, etc, that give me the direction, tools, understanding, and confidence I need to conduct the balanced and harmonious relationship that I now have with my "rehabilitated" dog.

So, I give my deepest thanks and appreciation to those of you who share yourselves, your experiences, your knowledge generously without expecting undue deference in return. [][sm=floating.gif]