Initial Conditions

Ron, you really have done a magnificent job with Shadow and I commend you. Hand-me-down dogs can be tough rows to hoe and I speak from experience.

I have no idea what Conrad's life was like before we adopted him but from his behavior (and small clues like the fact that as a mixed breed he was not neutered by almost 2 years of age and that he was dumped at a pound because the kids stopped feeling like taking care of the dog) I'm positive it included a fair amount of neglect, some roughness (not sure I'd call "abuse"), and a definate lack of socialization. Those are tough things to counteract when you get the dog at 18 months-2 years of age. It's like something is broken in him. He's made huge progress over the years but some things can never be completely 100% fixed as if they never happened.

He's made huge progress over the years but some things can never be completely 100% fixed as if they never happened.

 
And we may have some of those limitations, too. At least one other person here has to muzzle her dog to go to the vet. The dog sees the muzzle as a calming influence because it's always associated with the best meat treats. But the muzzle is also to protect the vet staff. And the dog is otherwise a good dog, with just that one problem. But Shadow may never go in water, may never like kennels, may never like the vet. He may like another vet, he may not like any vets. OTOH, I haven't finished to my satisfaction trying to acclimate him to the vetting process. And that is my next major challenge. Major because I don't always have the time. The vet's office closes at 5 and on a regular full day, I can't get there in time, thanks to work, traffic in Plano, traffic in McKinney, Melissa. Traffic doesn't clear out until Anna. Then, even when I get home, get everything settled and get Shadow ready, it takes another 20 minutes to get to the vet. The reason I was able to do his shot on Monday is because we didn't have enough work at my company and I was on the way home by 12:00 noon. So, there are logistical challenges to getting him to the vet's more often for desensitization.
 

But Shadow may never go in water, may never like kennels, may never like the vet. He may like another vet, he may not like any vets.

do you believe that it is OK not to have a perfect dog?

what i mean by that is to be ok, on a personal mental level, with a few quirks that last a dogs lifetime?

our old aussie, buster, just hated getting a bath. hated it the first time we gave him one at 8 weeks. he did not freak out or anything like that, just stood there in the tub and would occasioanlly try to slowly budge his way out of the tub as if i were not looking. after a year, i simply just accepted that i was going to have to block his escape and be OK with that. never bothered me aftyer that.

so what feelings do you have when you have to put a muzzle on shadow in order to get him through a vet visit. are you affected by what others may think? i do not mean to use you as an example. what i am curious about here is how our (anyone's) dogs unwanted behavior effects our moods and such when we are in the presense of other bystanders.

Thank you for sharing that, ron. It sounds like you have done an amazing job. Your dedication to Shadow is apparent. He's a lucky boy.

I suppose if I came across a dog who really needed my help, and I thought I was his last hope, I would have to take him in and do my best. I know that I've been selfish in building my family because I've only had puppies. B'asia was the oldest at 4.5 months and she came straight from the breeder, so I know she wasn't abused. The others were much younger at 8-10 weeks. I had the opportunity to shape them as I saw fit, not pick up someone else's mistakes and try to fix them. I'm not sure I could do that and I know my limits. But thank goodness for people like you who are willing to take these dogs that others are ready to throw away after their newness wears off...

Even before I had heard Shadow's background, I knew that you were doing the very best possible with a bad situation at the vet's. I certainly don't judge you for that. I hope you know that. Like I said, I have the LUXURY of giving my pups all the exposure they could handle. [sm=happy.gif] I commend you for taking on the job of giving the guy another chance at love.

All fair questions and I invite them.
 
Yes, it's okay to not have the "perfect" dog. He may have one or two quirks that can be managed. For example, if I can't get him acclimated to the vet, then either I can have him sedated with an oral dose or try another vet.
 
It doesn't bother me to have him muzzled. At least one other person in the First Church of +R uses a muzzle for her dog at the vet's. If I worried about what other people think, I wouldn't have had long hair for such a long time. And no, cutting my hair didn't improve my position, either. I have a personality defect. I say what I think and what I know. I don't kiss butt very well, at all. I'm crappy at politics.
 
Just the same, the goal is to have him calmly accepting the vet's touch. I may not get there but I am going to try and I'm going to continue on the +R path of righteousness and recommend it to others. While I usually operate on the old engineering principle of "if it works, don't fix it," I continue to strive forward. If I didn't seek improvement, I wouldn't have a master license in my trade. And I realize that I am, by default of my statement, introducing a value judgement. That I find +R better than physical methods. I can't help that, it's my humble opinion. I strive for perfection even as I fall short. I continue to do good deeds even while I'm on the highway to Hell.
 
And I do believe we all care for our dogs and don't, even for an instant, think that my preference for +R over physical means that I think you don't care for your dog because you use it. I once used it and I care very much for my dog, as you do.
 

It sounds like you have done an amazing job. Your dedication to Shadow is apparent. He's a lucky boy.

 
Thank you. And to paraphrase what I said in another post, we all care for our dogs dearly and I have never meant to imply that someone doesn't care for their dogs because of using physical methods. I cared for him greatly when I still used corrections including the scruff and used them because I thought that was what was needed. I care for him greatly, now. As I see you care for yours.
 
I also realize how different lifestyles may call for different training. Rebecca trains herding dogs with her sheep and uses verbal corrections as boundaries or guides. In traditional sled dog training, there is no time or way to click and treat on the trail. New dogs are placed in an established team and they learn the trade by trial and error. And they live outside tethered to a stake or zip line and are greatly cared for with the best of food, constant vet attention and nutrition monitoring, and daily runs. It's a different world.
 
Some dogs respond wonderfully to a verbal no reward marker that some might see as a correction. Breed also has some impact. This is another spot where I would differ with Sternberg's approach. Breed has impact. GSDs are extremely obedient. Huskies are independent and were never bred to guard or do specific off-leash obedience. The traits that make a great sled dog are not the same as the traits that make an easy housepet, not to imply that GSDs are a walk in the park.
 

Let me also add that even though I have been around dogs in my life, I didn't know spit from shinola when I got Shadow. I was as ignorant a JQP as there ever was. When I say ignorant, I mean lack of knowledge. Ignorance is a curable condition. And I've been curing myself ever since and continue to eradicate my ignorance.
 
I think some people have a certain way of receiving info or even criticism. Spiritdogs constantly repeated the need to use +R and clickers and to reduce or eliminate the use of force when possible. And others had words not so sugar-coated. And I took it in stride. Just as I am not always at my most diplomatic. I can't count the number of times someone took something I said the wrong way with acrimonious consequences. One time, a whole page of heated exchange followed my use of one word (I don't even remember what the word was).
 
In the end, we're all after the same thing. An affectionate, rewarding relationship with our dogs and the world at large, as best as we can make it.
 

Some dogs respond wonderfully to a verbal no reward marker that some might see as a correction. Breed also has some impact. This is another spot where I would differ with Sternberg's approach. Breed has impact. GSDs are extremely obedient. Huskies are independent and were never bred to guard or do specific off-leash obedience. The traits that make a great sled dog are not the same as the traits that make an easy housepet, not to imply that GSDs are a walk in the park.

 
 
I agree, breed has impact.....I have both, Huskies and Shepherds.......the difference is like apples and oranges.....I prefer training a Shepherd, imo, superior intelligence, but Huskies are not flat out aggressive, something one has to squelch in most GSDs.
 
Ron, Shadow is a lucky dog and you are a lucky owner.....[]

Has his name always been Shadow?  you did say "any" questions and thats something ive been curious abt for a while...

ORIGINAL: ron2

I was as ignorant a JQP as there ever was.

Hey, I always say I am JQP so I resent this.  You were not ignorant, you lacked common sense which is what makes me an excellent dog Caretaker. 

It might interest you to know that sometimes initial conditions don't play a big role. My mother got Jill as a puppy. She went to puppy preschool at the vet surgery and went to training school and got her socialisation and all the rest as everyone recommends. She has NEVER liked hands coming over her head to go for her collar. She has never allowed strangers to get hold of her. She doesn't have to be muzzled at the vets, but only because her vet is a very cluey guy and is cool with getting out of her space immediately if he picks up the slightest sign that she wants to bite. She used to freak out every time a bus or large truck went past her, but my mother has managed to get her over that with a lot of soothing talk and whatnot.

Jill is far from perfect. She probably will never be completely trustworthy at the vets. Just like Penny will always be terrified of storms and fireworks and the monster behind the fence next door. I think you've got to decide what's worth tackling and what's not. Sometimes the best you can do by your dog is manage their issue.

Ron, you've done wonders with Shadow and it's been a delight hearing of you overcoming your problems and finding ways to communicate with Shadow. You and Shadow have both come so far. It's been a pleasure knowing you. []

thank you ron.

i used to feel weird whenever i'd take one our dogs into the vet and it got out of hand in the waiting room.. like when the dog was in a panic attack shaking like it was having a seizure. then i realized one day that the weird feeling i was having about others staring at my dog was more about them and less about me cuz i found myself on occasion looking at other peoples out of control dogs as well. after i got over myself delusions like it was my fault my dog was having a panic attack, i started to take more of an interest in why the dog was freaking out like that in the first place. we took in many strays where we lived and some of them took a long long time to change even 50% - most of them were probably neglected &/or beaten - then dumped 7 miles out of town where we lived.

Any questions? What is JQP? [8D]

would anyone care to guess the initial conditions of our 2 rescues?

mandi: our big english shepherd mix....

she was 60 pounds when we got her. her ribs and backbone were glaring her malnourishment (she is now solid at 90 pounds - about her ideal weight according to the vet).

she is skittish when one holds up a newspaper and hates having her paws or tail grabbed - especially her tail.

when we rescued her, she still had some puppy in her and did not know any boundaries. would jump up on anyone to greet them as well as jump up on the bed or furniture.

we believe she was abused (not too badly) and then escaped and lived on the street for awhile.

she came to us like a wild horse, in the back yard, and on a leash, would almost tear out an arm socket. my wife would not walk her so it was up to me.



saler: the blue eyed aussie

when we rescued him, he seemed like a pretty mellow guy. not reserved, he seemed indifferent when we walked him around. in fact, he is the opposite of mandi on a leash. walks perfectly at my side as if he were trained to walk on a leash from puppyhood.

he did not take kindly to out 9 year old son.

since i was the one who played ball with him in the back yard, he didn't want to have much of anything to do with my son. one time, my kid was playing ball with him and saler nipped his leg as kevin ran across the grass.

there were also times where saler would give a warning bark in the house when my son walked past him or approached him like in the hallway.

when people would come over, he was reserved. one time, my wifes mom spent the night and saler was observing her in the bedroom and strted to growl.

on another occasion, he nipped at kevins leg and drew some blood. that's when i decided to stop playing ball with him and make his only source of play time be that with my son. the ball (his main reward) came only from my son - and within a week, i observed a change in his behavior. he also would give me this look as if "why won't you play ball with me" - lol

when you try to rub his back with your foot (being too lazy to bend over) he will freak out and give a panic cry. there are other things that can make him go into a panic cry... such as if he ever gets a lil popp stuck in his fur in the behind or has the runs, i have to take him out back and wash him off with the hose. so i hold him by the behind and when i start to rinse him off, he'll sometimes freak our with that panic cry.

he's sorta fear agressive - all of which leads me to think that he was severely abused.

he will never attempt to get up on furniture, the bed, or jump up on you... and he doesn't seek affection very much.

because of his abuse and will easily coewer down at the sight of any negative energy, i rarely will give any +P type corrections with him. if i see him doing something i don't want, i usuallu just say "hey" and that's enough for him to stop.... and he'll look at me as if he's gonna "get it with a kick" or soemthing - sad. i try to be as tender as i can be as he is probably our most sensitive dog.

he may do very well by attending a 3 week vacation in the power of the pack place.... to help him out in his socialization skills with other people as well as other dogs.



what do you guys think?