the dog whisperer - season 4

ron2

But is not trauma a trauma, regardless of species? I may get pimp-slapped for bringing someone else's problem to this discussion but I think it might be germaine. DPU has a SA dog that was emaciated. Would the proper treatment then be more hours alone and allowing the dog to beg for food, in the interesting of "flooding" the fear out of the dog? DPU is even hesitant to use lure/reward or clicker training in that satiation and deprivation are factors in the learning process. One of the early criticisms of CM is his use of flooding and corrections, which do not always cure. Often, they can produce a shut-down dog.

In the case of a true phobia, flooding doesn't necessarily help. Have you ever been frightened or anxious in the presence of something and all that talk about "get use to it" and  "suck it up" just made you want to pop someone in the mouth? All creatures respond to the quadrants of operant conditioning.

 But in many normal cases flooding can be successful. Mind you if you blow it, if you start and fail to finish then you can leave the dog in a worse state than when you started.

I don't think tornadoes is the best example since only a dummy would ask you to stand in ones path, but if you were afraid of spiders and the very sight of them caused you to break out in a cold sweat then perhaps forcing yourself to stroll through the portion of the zoo, where spiders are behind glass would help you, I doubt that making you lie in a bathtub full of spiders would. So it depends on the degree of pressure that you are asking the dog to deal with.

snownose

I've only seen one Victoria Stillwell - "It's Us or the Dog" episode (I hope I got that right!) and still haven't seen the new show with the Monks of New Skete - "Devine K9".

What channels are these shows on?  I wouldn't mind catching a couple of episodes.  Thanx!

dgriego

I don't think tornadoes is the best example since only a dummy would ask you to stand in ones path, but if you were afraid of spiders

I guess no one besides me has had what could be called an irrational fear. Notice the word "irrational." It doesn't matter if it's tornados, heights, snakes, or trash trucks (one of Shadow's problems that he got over). A fear is a fear and and what you might do to counteract that would be considered controlled and monitored exposure. For example, a leash reactive dog. You find the range at which he does not react and reward that lack of reactive behavior. You move in a little closer, etc, etc., rather than just bring him over into the middle of it with a flood that can't be stopped.

I don't think I have the links on hand but I've read a report or two or at least a differing opinion that points out that flooding is not all that effective in behavior mod for a phobia or irrational fear.

As a human of average intelligence, I can combat my own misgivings. When we flew up to New Jersey in 2005, I was nervous and it was primarily due to 9-11-01. I controlled my breathing, kept myself busy, and promised to myself that if any one even thought about causing a problem, I would see to that they left the plane in a body bag and I would walk off. I think the root of a fear is loss of or lack of control over one's environment. Once you can establish a means of control, you manage it. Notice I said establish a means of control. This takes work, rather than flooding.

He's on the National Geographic Channel. You can check their website for dates/times.

I saw the last episode (discussed earlier in this thread) with the frightened dog (Luna?) and like others, I found myself crying too. I was totally amazed at how well the acupuncture worked to calm her down. It was such a beautiful site to see her close her eyes and finally look so peaceful.  Great episode!!!

ron2

dgriego

I don't think tornadoes is the best example since only a dummy would ask you to stand in ones path, but if you were afraid of spiders

 

I guess no one besides me has had what could be called an irrational fear. Notice the word "irrational." It doesn't matter if it's tornados, heights, snakes, or trash trucks (one of Shadow's problems that he got over). A fear is a fear and and what you might do to counteract that would be considered controlled and monitored exposure. For example, a leash reactive dog. You find the range at which he does not react and reward that lack of reactive behavior. You move in a little closer, etc, etc., rather than just bring him over into the middle of it with a flood that can't be stopped.

I don't think I have the links on hand but I've read a report or two or at least a differing opinion that points out that flooding is not all that effective in behavior mod for a phobia or irrational fear.

As a human of average intelligence, I can combat my own misgivings. When we flew up to New Jersey in 2005, I was nervous and it was primarily due to 9-11-01. I controlled my breathing, kept myself busy, and promised to myself that if any one even thought about causing a problem, I would see to that they left the plane in a body bag and I would walk off. I think the root of a fear is loss of or lack of control over one's environment. Once you can establish a means of control, you manage it. Notice I said establish a means of control. This takes work, rather than flooding.

 Yes I am afraid of heights and the fear is irrational. Spiders also freak me out a little and I am terrified of centipedes.

The fear that Gunnar had after his firework episode was also irrational, and I believe that had I not used flooding (and it was carefully done with distractions and rewards) I would now own a very fine hunting dog that would run for the hills every time someone fired a shot leaving us behind to retrieve the birds. It can be used, it can be successful it really depends on the dog, the fear, the degree of the fear and a lot of other factors. For Gunnar because he already knew that guns were good, (gun goes off, bird falls from sky, I get to go get the bird) the flooding was to get him over quickly the fear that perhaps guns were not so good because the fireworks had frightened him so bad and because he slammed into the door and hurt himself while running from the fireworks, which compounded his irrational fear of loud bangs.

 Had I coddled him I do not think he would have recovered and would have ended up gun shy.

Janet808

I've only seen one Victoria Stillwell - "It's Us or the Dog" episode

I think it's on the BBC. It is a British show.

It's me or the dog 

Divine K9 is on Animal Planet 

That dog is absolutely beautiful....I love white dogs, be it Shepherds or Huskies/Mals.......ugh....yeah, I heard him requesting several leashes.....but, he ended up carrying her to the mobile vet van........I loved how the dog went back to being with the family of horses......good ending....

dgriego

and I believe that had I not used flooding (and it was carefully done with distractions and rewards)

Then I guess I need your definition of flooding because it still sounds like you are providing a monitored and controlled exposure designed to change the meaning of the stimulus, rather than just immersing the dog into the situation with a "sink or swim" ultimatum.

Believe it or not, I can have a problem with heights. Well, I had to use a 60 foot boom crane (it has a ovoid central base and a telescoping arm and basket) to twist a head on a pole light. I had not been that high before on that type of equipment. I could get about 15 feet from the head before my nerves would fail me. And it was partly due to not trusting the equipment, which sways and lurches. So, I operated it from the base several times to see how it operated, how well it did at 50 feet, the height I needed. I tested it's limits and tried to to make it turn over or fail. After several times of nothing but safe results, I had reconditioned my response to it. Which took a couple of hours. Then I was able to turn the light head. I got down and the boss came by to give me paper work. And noted that I need to turn another head to cover the area I was removing light from. So, I had to go back up there. And it only took 5 minutes to take care of the additional task. But I did not flood. I reassigned meaning until I was comfortable, which sounds similar to what you are doing. Unless, I am mistaken.

ron2

Then I guess I need your definition of flooding because it still sounds like you are providing a monitored and controlled exposure designed to change the meaning of the stimulus, rather than just immersing the dog into the situation with a "sink or swim" ultimatum

 To me I used both, I controlled the exposure in that we did not blast the gun over and over while allowing the dog to freak out, but he was not allowed to leave or avoid the fact that the gun was being fired. Just because we used distraction and rewards (the object being thrown or the bird) does not mean he was not still exposed to that which he did not want to be exposed to. His choice would have been to run and hide.The reason I would still define it as flooding is because there was no escape from the noise, the dog was not allowed to flee, when he behaved with fear his fear was ignored and the exersise was continued until we could fire the gun without him flinching. Over the course of a few days he went from flinching at the sight of the gun to excitement at seeing the gun( which is where he was prior to the firework incident).

dgriego

Just because we used distraction and rewards (the object being thrown or the bird) does not mean he was not still exposed to that which he did not want to be exposed to. His choice would have been to run and hide.The reason I would still define it as flooding is because there was no escape from the noise,

I understand how you mean flooding by the dog not having a choice to leave. But you also offered rewards for staying in the scene, which is different than just holding the dog there with no rewards until "he gets over it." You most specifically changed the meaning. I, too, couldn't leave my assignment until it was done. But I could reassign meaning to the situation. And I think, by not coddling the dog, you didn't reward any fear response to the sound. And the dog became motivated to stay. Probably the hardest thing was to make the dog stay through the initial fear response.

How much longer would it take to simply offer the reward and allow the dog to choose to stay?

ron2

How much longer would it take to simply offer the reward and allow the dog to choose to stay?

 That would be difficult to answer simply because I did not go that route. I will say that the route chosen was done so with care, was adjusted as we went and was in the dog and our best interests. Gunnar is a fine hunter and loves being in the field, you can see his entire body light up like a Christmas tree at the mere thought of going out hunting. It would have been a tragedy for him to lose this experience due to one single bad experience with fireworks and we would have lost a wonderful hunting companion.

 I would also point out that IMO when dealing with fear issues there is one thing that Cesar says that I 100% agree with. You must finish the exercise on a mutually good note. To not do so, to finish with the dog in a fearful or worse terrified state can make the problem larger than it was when you began. That is why to me I would consider it flooding because once we started we could not leave the exercise with Gunnar, cowering, hiding or feeling from the loud bang.

 I will say that the method we used and the commitment we placed on it was largely due to the importance of the matter. Had Gunnar displayed this same fear with say, bicycles then I would have taken a slower approach to resolving the fear.With some things I may not choose to do anything at all.

 For instance Hektor had a great day today. He graduated his Family Dog class even though we missed the last two and has not practiced any obedience for 2 weeks. We went to the pet store where while I was sitting on a stool with Hektor at my side he was approached by a pit-bull that was somewhat rude, and he behaved great. To make it even more interesting the pit-bull slipped his collar while behaving in a rude manner and Hektor sat quietly and tolerated him because I instructed him to leave it and to settle. I was so proud of him! After this he met a lady in a wheelchair and was a perfect gentleman.

 Sadly as we were leaving the pet store Hektor met a 20-foot tall bendy flexi balloon man. Needless to say this introduction did not go well. Hektor responded in a manner that caused the large crowd sitting outside of Starbuks to abandon ship as they were convinced that Hektor was rabid and was about to eat them all. Needless to say they could not see the 20ft balloon guy on the roof but Hektor saw it and he was terrified. His hair was all up and he was growling and lunging like a mad dog. Once I got him away I made him sit some distance away but still in view of the balloon man. He was shaking at this point. I sat with him until he calmed, not speaking or talking to him, just sitting. Once he calmed we would start walking and he would go for the balloon man again, and we would repeat the process until we got far enough away from balloon man. I finished by sitting outside of Walgreen’s for a bit so he could get over it and finish on a good note.

 Now is it worthwhile to go back and “flood” Hektor until he is able to deal with the 20-foot balloon man? IMO it is not. I will take him back to the pet store tomorrow and we will walk around inside and sit outside but we will avoid the side of the strip mall that contains the 20 foot balloon man. It is more important to me that he not take this incident and tie it into walking about in public than it is for me to make certain he is able to not fear 20-foot tall balloon flexi men.

 Mind you with that being said I pity the poor balloonist that may by mishap land in our yard. (We live near a regular balloon fiesta).

lostcoyote

i wonder if any of the ladies herein started to sniffle a bit when the dog got to return to her horse pack after she got spayed?

You would only know that if you started to sniffle a little yourself! LOL And yes! I didn't sniffle, though - I was practically bawling! That was SO cool!

It was funny how they edited it to say "I'm gonna need another leash" *snip* "Do you have another leash"? *snip* "We're gonna need another leash" *snip* "Ok. Another leash, please" LOL I loved it! He never showed emotion until the dog got away and then it was turned on himself. He felt failure for 2 seconds, then started again.

I also loved the last story where he used Daddy to perk up the little Bull Terrier. What an emotional scene to see that dog go from totally lethargic to a jumping, dancing, happy boy! That was incredible!

Great show!
 

lol - well, i didn't sniffle.... but i know a precious moment when i see it......... right now, we're watching an amazing video on wolves titles "living with wolves" by jim and ami dutcher........ it was on PBS a few years back.... have you seen it? ooooooops, i just went off topic........ anyway, back to that episode, yes, i liked the way they gave the bull terrier episode the name, "the tired terrier" going across the screen on a wagon - hahahah.... noting like being introduced to a new dog to liven things up.... daddy snapped the terrier right out of it.

 That Bull Terrier was hysterical. I have never seen a dog that slow, mind you I cannot say I blame him. If I had to climb such a huge set of stairs every time we go for a walk there would be fewer walks.