the dog whisperer - season 4

Ron, you are hoping that CM will enter the + R arena, and broaden his horizon......can we hope the same of his critics/ enemies?

I love the way you slid some the comments in your post....lol...slick.....here is one for ya....if I buy a Viper, and say" You would not believe what the car does in this and that situation", and you come to me and say, "Oh yeah, I have been reading about that"......is that experience the same?

ron2

We know he knows how to finger bite

ron2

Let's see him do the other stuff. If you want to talk about balance, then let's see some balance.

Are you expecting him to cross the chasm to the other side? Because I AM seeing balance. I'm seeing him use a style that is + and -P "balanced" with +R, which is what I've been using for years. It sounds like you won't call him balanced until he's totally +R Only and to me, that is Imbalanced.

ron2

Now, what will happen to his audience if he truly incorporates more of the other quadrants of OC than just +P? Will they follow his journey or turn away, once he's "gone soft"?

LOL You're so cute! But no, if he goes totally +R only, I will be exactly the same as I am with him now. I will agree with some and disagree with other methods. Cesar fans aren't cult followers as some would like to believe. He's just taught me a LOT and I like a lot of what he says and I learn a lot from him about the nature of dogs AND humans.

snownose

...slick.....here is one for ya....if I buy a Viper, and say" You would not believe what the car does in this and that situation", and you come to me and say, "Oh yeah, I have been reading about that"......is that experience the same

No slicker than most. And, undisputed, so far.

I originally was going to reply to the rest but it might be better suited in another thread. This is about season 4.

sd --- apparently no one noticed the wink at the end of my sentence. Apparently, we still have no sense of humor here.

As Angelique said, its about expanding the tool box, not "catching up", catching up means you are behind

A few months ago i posted my experience with an aggressive dog and me using calm assertive energy to get closer as well that using hot dogs to accelerate the trusting process, only using one and not both maybe would be making my experience not as successful  

ron2

And it is the hope of this flapping sheet in the wind with a clicker in my right front pocket that CM will, in fact, expand his education and understanding and be able to show that on the show and that he will be able to use more of these other methods. We know he knows how to finger bite, and foot tap, and collar pop and tsst. Let's see him do the other stuff. If you want to talk about balance, then let's see some balance.

Can we ask the same to all those people at the opposite side of the sphere? Can they really expand their tool box as Cesar does? Can they expand to leadership, calm assertive energy, pack leader ideology, etc.? Or actually they dont need to expand since R+ seems to be infallible for them?

Those trainers that only use a clicker should also expand their tool box? If "catching up" means "learn more" and get right in the middle of the quadrants then probably thats a good argument, if "catching up" means quitting 100% what you are doing and go to  the  "opposite" direction then i dont think thats the best thing to say, do they also expand their education and understanding? Are they balanced using ONLY one tool?

If i need to put a nail on the wall i wont use a screwdriver, i will use a hammer, that does NOT mean that a screwdriver is useless, a screwdriver is better for other kind of situations, situations that even the hammer can not solve. Would you use a screwdriver for every single situation around the house?

NOTE: there are different types of "screwdrivers", using them all still wont make the screwdriver the best tool for putting that nail into the wall, does not matter how many "screwdrivers" you have, they are still inside the "screwdriver family". Sure, you can use a screwdriver still to put a nail into the wall, hell, you can even use a shoe for that but would you? Are you balanced using one tool (does not matter if you have a hundred styles of it)?

Who in this forum has "hammers" AND a "screwdrivers"? Who in this forum ONLY has one or the other but not both?

FourIsCompany

I'm seeing him use a style that is + and -P "balanced" with +R, which is what I've been using for years. It sounds like you won't call him balanced until he's totally +R Only and to me, that is Imbalanced

I haven't seen much of the new season. But once or twice I have seen what he calls +R. The dog that was afraid of the bath. He gets him in the tub and hands him a single treat. And calls that positive reinforcement. Then turns on the water. The dog freaks out and he responds by grabbing him by the scruff hard enough to immobilize the head.

Another episode where the dog is afraid of the air compressor in the garage. And for some reason, the owner just has to have the dog with him while using the air compressor. Anyway, CM leads him to the garage with an open can of food and calls that +R. Then does the collar pops and tssts when the dog freaks out as the air compressor is turned on. The one good thing he did was not give validating attention when the dog was stressed. But who placed the dog in stress? He could have done without the corrections and saved the food treat for only when the dog is calm or not reactive.

These things do not jibe with what I have come to understand as positive reinforcement and I doubted his understanding, at least as presented in the show. More often than not, it has been corrections. I use punishment, too. -P. Withholding of attention to cause extinction. Or, not making a big deal out of something in order to not validate the fearfulness.

That is what I mean by balance. We all use punishment, some of us +, some of us -. It would be more balanced to see him truly using +R in as many cases as +P. Or at least have the show edited that way. It is more dramatic to see him rasslin a dog. It is probably more boring to see a motivational change. It involves doing nothing (-P) and doing something (+R).

A member here has a disability in one of her shoulders. Wrestling any one of her 6, count them 6, GSDs is not an option. She is petite and over 50 and any one of the dogs weighs 90 lbs or more and she is likely to lose the struggle. She uses +R and -P. And a set of rules that she cannot enforce by physical force but they are always followed, as rules of the universe.

IMO, it is a misconception that +R is imbalanced because it can incorporate -P.

Here's to the evolution of CM.

(drink emoticon here)

ron2

I haven't seen much of the new season.

You might be pleasantly surprised.

For 2 months, I have been incapacitated. I am just now getting back on my feet with physical therapy. I am 50. I cannot wrestle with Jaia. I will lose.

ron2

And a set of rules that she cannot enforce by physical force but they are always followed, as rules of the universe.

Same here.

ron2

Here's to the evolution of CM.

Cheers.

Espencer, great post! I have a hammer, a screwdriver, a saw, a drill, an awl, and a chisel! Among other things. The more tools, the better!

FourIsCompany

Cheers.

Now, that's cool. Thanks, Carla.

espencer

Can they really expand their tool box as Cesar does? Can they expand to leadership, calm assertive energy, pack leader ideology, etc.?

Been there, done that. Every single person here that uses +R and -P started out using mainly corrections, or corrections and some +R. And changed. Even Karen Pryor, who owned and trained dogs before working with dolphins, started out using corrections and the wolf pack ideology. And changed. That is, people have gone through "balance "in their lifetimes or even within the ownership of one dog. If part of this thread is to applaud CM for doing more things than just corrections, why not embrace that? One good episode from a previous season was with the skiddish Visla. He used the owner's leash to physically support the tail in a more confident position which helped changed the dog's attitude. Even I would not call that a correction. He should do more stuff like that, and positive motivation.

ron2

Been there, done that. Every single person here that uses +R and -P started out using mainly corrections, or corrections and some +R. And changed. Even Karen Pryor, who owned and trained dogs before working with dolphins, started out using corrections and the wolf pack ideology. And changed.

That sounds more like you were using a "hammer", discover the "screwdriver" BUT got rid of the "hammer" at the same time, is that expanding the tool box? Did you use the "hammer" correctly? or because you never understood how to use it correctly you thought the "hammer" was actually the one to blame for its poor use? 

by the way, i put up Ceasr's response to the "positive trainers with treats and clickers" only camp over on dg's topic, the book discussion (part 1) thread.

ron2

That is what I mean by balance. We all use punishment, some of us +, some of us -. It would be more balanced to see him truly using +R in as many cases as +P. Or at least have the show edited that way. It is more dramatic to see him rasslin a dog. It is probably more boring to see a motivational change. It involves doing nothing (-P) and doing something (+R).

 I do not think that he purposley chooses one method ( rasslin as you say) over another (+R) for the purpose of entertainment.

  Seeing a dog that is afraid of something have to face that fear is not pleasant for many folks, mainly because they humanize the dog and feel sorry for it, they think in terms of human trama and not dog trama. I do think that we compound the fears and phobias of our dogs in many cases. And I agree with Cesar when he says that the facing of the fear is exactly what is needed to cure it. But the thing that most people miss is that he also says once you begin along this course you cannot quit, you cannot back down and you must continue until the dog is calm. 

 You mention the compressor and the bath, both cases that were cured of the phobias (it would be interesting to see if this is still the case) and the compressor one had been compounded by the wife's anger at the husband for being in the garage, so much of the "bad juju" was picked up off the wife by the dog. I do not recall the one with the bath so I cannot speak to that one.

 We went through a "fear" time with Gunnar where he became afraid of loud noises, this is not a good fear for a hunting dog to have. He had been home with my son one evening and had been outside in the yard when someone set off a large amount of fireworks in the next yard. Gunnar ran towards the house and missed the dog door completly slamming into the patio door, he recovered and almost tore the door off in his zeal to get in, at this time my son was running over the see what was going on and noticed Gunnar cowering under a desk shaking, and he sat with him and held him and loved him trying to make him feel better. From that point on any loud bang, be it gun, fireworks, backfire etc would send Gunnar running for the hills. This presents a problem when out hunting as the dog is suppose to fetch the bird not take off for parts unknown.

 We took him out on a weekend to attempt to cure him. With a starter pistol and a long line I started playing ball with Gunnar which he loves, when he got into the game we fired the pistol paying no attention to it and acking as if we did not hear it, Gunnar took off to the end of his line, no one acted like they noticed his fear and we contined walking with the ball, as he got over it we went back to throwing. It took an entire weekend but at the end we could fire a shotgun and he would hold point and not flinch, he ignored the starter pistol completley. The only residue of his fear that remains is fireworks, but he does not run or panic when he hears them. Once fireworks start he will come and sit next to me, I can tell he does not like them but he does not quake in fear. Whenever I know there are going to be fireworks he stays in the house, this past fourth he slept on the couch while numerous fireworks were set off in our backyard.

 My point to this story is had I felt sorry for Gunnar (which my son did and reinforced his fear instead of helping him get over it) I would have a fine useless hunting dog, one that could find birds but when the gun goes off would most likely have gotten himself killed or lost forever trying to get away. You can feel sorry for the dog and keep him afraid forever or you can act (with compassion) and let him face his fear and get over it.

an interesting side note to this story is that we used no treats in this process. The ball which he loves was the reward and the bird which he also loves was the reward.

dgriego

 I do not think that he purposley chooses one method ( rasslin as you say) over another (+R) for the purpose of entertainment.

Producers and editors decide what we will see for maximum entertainment. Ratings are everything.

dgriego

Seeing a dog that is afraid of something have to face that fear is not pleasant for many folks, mainly because they humanize the dog and feel sorry for it, they think in terms of human trama and not dog trama.

But is not trauma a trauma, regardless of species? I may get pimp-slapped for bringing someone else's problem to this discussion but I think it might be germaine. DPU has a SA dog that was emaciated. Would the proper treatment then be more hours alone and allowing the dog to beg for food, in the interesting of "flooding" the fear out of the dog? DPU is even hesitant to use lure/reward or clicker training in that satiation and deprivation are factors in the learning process. One of the early criticisms of CM is his use of flooding and corrections, which do not always cure. Often, they can produce a shut-down dog.

In the case of a true phobia, flooding doesn't necessarily help. Have you ever been frightened or anxious in the presence of something and all that talk about "get use to it" and  "suck it up" just made you want to pop someone in the mouth? All creatures respond to the quadrants of operant conditioning.

Personal case. I do not like tornados. The destroy property and kill people. And have the ghastly nickname "The Finger of God." And if a person was to try and "flood" me by trying to make me stay in the path when I can still get away, such a person would find themselves flat on the ground, me stepping over or around them, and me getting in my truck and driving at about 70 to 90 mph to the south. I can see a dog doing the same thing, contextual to what bothers them. But, give me a safe place, such as a shelter, then there's no problem. Why not give the dog a safe place? Or coping mechanism?

Comparing a tornado to a situation a dog is afraid might be little different.....we try to control the environment, a tornado can NOT be controlled.....that is where the situation varies......usually, if the dog has been put through a situation and the dog realizes it is ok, and no harm will be done, remember, this is a controlled situation.............good for the dog.....unlike a tornado.....a bad, bad situation one can NOT control, and one can NOT predict the outcome...........