Affection...

ORIGINAL: houndlove
Which kind of begs the question, what's the difference between affection and attention?

I think affection is a subset or TYPE of attention. Affection is positive attention, whether it's talking, massage, food, pets, holding... things dogs like.

Another type of attention is negative, or things they don't like. Saying No, yelling, hitting... things they don't like. Screaming across the dog park... [8|]

Anything focused on engaging the dog is giving them attention. If they like it, it's affection (to them).

I think affection is a subset or TYPE of attention. Affection is positive attention, whether it's talking, massage, food, pets, holding... things dogs like.

Another type of attention is negative, or things they don't like. Saying No, yelling, hitting... things they don't like. Screaming across the dog park...

Anything focused on engaging the dog is giving them attention. If they like it, it's affection (to them).

Interesting.  I supposed I should edit the OP and clarify.  I see treats and toys as something other than affection b/c those are tangible objects.  Treats, toys, affection....are all different rewards, but I see them as different things with different purposes.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I think affection is a subset or TYPE of attention. Affection is positive attention, whether it's talking, massage, food, pets, holding... things dogs like.

Another type of attention is negative, or things they don't like. Saying No, yelling, hitting... things they don't like. Screaming across the dog park...

Anything focused on engaging the dog is giving them attention. If they like it, it's affection (to them).

Interesting.  I supposed I should edit the OP and clarify.  I see treats and toys as something other than affection b/c those are tangible objects.  Treats, toys, affection....are all different rewards, but I see them as different things with different purposes.

 
 sometime treats can be affection. I sometimes reward my dogs for no real reason, I might tell them "you guys are such good boys, I am so proud of you, would you guys like a bone?" and of course they are excited and thrilled that I am praising them and then they hear "bone" and get even more happy. I will then take a dog bone and ask them to sit, or lie down or perform some trick and then give them the bone. In my mind this is affection as the event was brought on by my taking joy in my dogs and rewarding them for no real reason.
 I also use toys at times the same way. They are lieing quietly at my feet while we watch TV, and I might call them over and tell them what good boys they are and ask if they would like to play "ball" or "frisbee" and watch their faces light up and their bodies wiggle. I will then grab the toy and we will go outside and play.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?

Yes. It's a good reinforcer and a good way to tell my dog I don't like what she's doing. Example, when I come home after a while of being away, Penny just wants to love up to me. I haven't seen her for ages either, so I also want to love up to her and we have some cuddles. However, when Jill shows up with her rope toy, Penny just can't tolerate it and will start growling and snarling and even air-snapping if Jill comes too close. Jill doesn't seem to notice, really, but I say, "I don't want to talk to you if you're going to be all grumpy at Jill." and I turn away from her. If she continues, I get up and leave. When I do that, she normally storms off to sulk on her own. That's fine by me. I don't want to talk to a snarly dog and she doesn't want to stop being snarly just to get my hugs. It gets her cranky, but I can love her up later when she's feeling less snarly.
 

Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors? 

I've got into a lot of arguments with people on the forum about this point. I'll just say that I think it's a case by case thing. I think it often does reinforce reactive and fearful behaviours, and I think coddling is usually about the worst thing you could do in these situations, however, I see a difference between coddling and comfort, and they both kind of fall under the umbrella of affection. I believe there are circumstances where the behaviour will continue regardless of whether you ignore it, get cross, or whatever else you can think of. I think in these cases, the best thing you can do is offer some calm comfort. When my dog is really scared of thunder or fireworks and in danger of getting up and running around the house in hysterics, I sit with her in her den of choice, put my arm around her, and just talk softly and maybe give her some slow, gentle strokes. It seems to be the only thing to do that will stop her from getting herself worked up into hysterics. 99% of the time, she can handle loud noises on her own by finding somewhere that feels safe to hole up, and as long as she's okay that way, I ignore her and pretend nothing is happening, but if she starts to get agitated, I think I need to step in and give her some comfort.

Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?

No, because animals often use the same method amongst themselves. My rabbit is very deft at denying affection when she doesn't like my behaviour and offering it when she does. It's a language I believe animals understand.

corvus, I really like how you explained the difference between comfort and coddling. I also give calm comfort to my dog when she's in need. At those times, IMO, hugs and kisses and cooing would be harmful.

DPU, yeah, I don't like to mess with my dog's basic survival needs either. Stuff like food and shelter isn't about happiness it's about staying alive, and I never want my dog to feel like I'm anything less than fully supportive of her survival.

My guess is that my dog understands being fed her to be much more "affectionate" than being hugged. That's why, with a new rescue dog, some of us hand feed and leash them to us for the first few days, rather than smother them with kisses and hug them a lot. It lets the dog know we are their caretakers, and builds familiarity and trust, which, along with good will, appreciation, and loyalty, are some of the basic hallmarks of what we'd call love and it's expression (affection).

Liesje, I try to refrain from projecting human stuff onto my dog as much as is humanly possible, and yet, catch myself doing it at least once a week. [] I have what's referred to as a velcro working dog; when she is engaged in purposeful activities, and has a human to shadow, she behaves in ways, that to my feeble human mind, seem satisfied, fulfilled, happy. But, then, I see the same reaction in other dogs I interact with. They behave more calmly, get less snippy, and seem to fill out their bodies and stride with more energy when they have had interactions in which they were successful and found approval (purpose and belonging).

1. Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?
nope

2.Use affection as a reward?
nope

3.Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?
yep

4.Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?
nope.

i would say that the word, mean, is the incorrect word to use here.
if one of my dogs comes up to me and just stands by my side, sits, or lays down and is calm, then that's the time I give them all my rubs, scratches, pats, and hugs.... but this, in my opinion, is reinforcing the calm behavior.

tonight, on our evening mifration walk through the land of fence dogs, the one last dog we pass is an assertive german shepherd fence dog. we simply just stopped and watched from accross the street. my boig girl is usually the first to react and tonight, after i requested that she sit down, we just sat there for a minute and she remained calm. i gave her a some chest rubs and behind the ear scratches as a reward for being calm with that fence dog going on with her barking.... and mandi just looks up at me with those big brown eyes i then said "good dog" and we finished our walk.

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

1. Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?
nope

2.Use affection as a reward?
nope

3.Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?
yep

 
You must have a unique definition of Affection to answer the questions the way you did.  Care to explain?

I've got into a lot of arguments with people on the forum about this point. I'll just say that I think it's a case by case thing. I think it often does reinforce reactive and fearful behaviours, and I think coddling is usually about the worst thing you could do in these situations, however, I see a difference between coddling and comfort, and they both kind of fall under the umbrella of affection. I believe there are circumstances where the behaviour will continue regardless of whether you ignore it, get cross, or whatever else you can think of. I think in these cases, the best thing you can do is offer some calm comfort. When my dog is really scared of thunder or fireworks and in danger of getting up and running around the house in hysterics, I sit with her in her den of choice, put my arm around her, and just talk softly and maybe give her some slow, gentle strokes.

I think this is a valid point.  I think what I mean is that when it seems inappropriate to coddle or comfort a fearful dog, it's not just because that might reinforce the fear, but because what the owner should have been doing is redirecting the dog, making the fearfulness disappear by moving onto something else, not acknowledging the fear and then having to comfort the dog, if that makes sense.  For example, when Kenya shows fearfulness of something, I simply ask her to sit and start doing basic obedience.  This redirection to something else makes her forget that she was even being fearful of something.  Therefore, I didn't need to determine whether comforting would be appropriate or whether it would work or make it worse.  We just deny the fearful object any right to affect our train of thought and our actions, move on to something else.  This happens to be one area where I find myself in agreement with CM.  I don't agree with the way he redirects (collar pops, leash corrections, verbal corrections rather than commands), but I think we share the same reasoning.  I think that one of the ways dogs differ from humans as far as fear is that for humans we need to address the fearful thing and "deal with it", but in my experience it's best for dogs to just forget about it and move on, don't even bother acknowledging the fearful thing b/c when you acknowledge it by comforting and coddling for it, you give it power.

Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?
I give out affection to modify behaviour, yes. Head scratches, talking (some of my guys find talking very affectionate), quick cuddles or belly rubs. I tend to give affection when reinforcing something that I like. I suppose you would say then that on the opposite end I remove affection to modify behaviour as well, but generally in this way I remove ATTENTION when doing so. I don't just remove affection, in which case still leaves you a lot of things you could do or say, but rather I remove attention from my dogs (ignoring them). But I suppose it would still encompass affection.

 Use affection as a reward? 
Yes, as described above.

Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors? 
This is something that is very dog dependent. I don't give in to the old adage that 'coddling a fearful dog will make it more fearful". Not at all. I have found throughout my life that with true phobias and fears (rather than just discomforts), you cannot reinforce fear, it's just not possible. I have found showing affection to truly fearful dogs in fearful situations usually either does nothing at all to change the behaviour, or it does help. And much to my surprise when I joined some forums I found out that there has been quite a lot written about this, and that there are so many others out there that agree with me!

You can't reinforce fear, because fear is a very primitive thing, found in some of the most basic animals that are thought to have a limited range of emotion. It is limbic, beyond the scope of operant abilities. Dog that are experiencing true fear (this does not include things like simple wariness, or shyness, or "fear periods", but rather deep-rooted fear in the form of phobias). Fear is so more complex than most people can imagine.

So to make it simple:
Would I coddle and pick up a puppy who entered the vet for the first time? Or who didn't want to walk by the trash can the first time it met one? Nope.

Would I re-assure and comfort my human fearful girl, by massage and using quiet, low-frequency sounds said in a slow tone of voice, and using touch to calm, if she got frightened by a person or we had company in the home? You betcha. And I've only noticed great things from it. I think to refuse your dog affection, during times of extreme stress and anxiety, is only doing a disservice to your dog. Often when your dog is truly afraid, it comes to you - most people who have dogs with phobias will realize this (the other option is fleeing in sheer panic and running anywhere but where the stimulus is). It's coming to you because you are its safe zone, because it feels you will provide safety and protection, that you will let no harm come to it. What message do you think you're sending when you either push the dog away or ignore any attempts at it trying to communicate its fear to you?

Like I said, fears and phobias are very complex situations. What people use this adage, they are lumping a whole lot of things under one umbrella. And it's not that black and white, it's just not.

Observations of wild canids and domestic canids as well, have shown that dogs DO seek comfort from one another, and do provide, in some manner, comfort to each other. Obviously this comfort is a different type of comfort than we humans provide, but it's the resulting emotion that matters, not how it was delivered. Humans and dogs have very different styles of comfort.

In a litter of puppies, their dam IS their comfort. When mama is around, they think that all is well. I think this is almost fundamental of normal puppies. Over the years I have seen so much of this to be true. When you take a litter outside for the first time (you'd have to do it across litters), compare taking the litter with the dam, and leaving the mother inside. If you take a litter outside without their dam, their first instincts are usually to lie in a huddle. This is called "packing". They are doing it a) because their dam isn't available and they aren't sure what to do, and b) packing is a behaviour that provides comfort (because they feel more safe) between siblings. However if you take a litter of pups outside with their dam, often the puppies will show little to no fear of the new area, and will go off and explore. I was fascinated as I observed litters over the last number of years to see this. The amount of comfort a dam provides to her young just by BEING there is astounding. Because it's what they understand. As they move out of the litter their comfort eventually comes from non-family - you or perhaps other dogs in your household. They can't help it, they are social creatures with social needs, and comfort, and acknowledgement of the animal's emotional state, is what they need.

Now, this is very dog-dependent and breed-dependent, but generally dogs like to sleep in huddles together. Such as the following (care of my lovely puppers):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/macmillk/Snuggle.jpg

This is just another version of the packing behaviour, albeit modified to more mature animals. If dogs have an entire house to sleep in, with a dozen or more beds, why is it they choose to all try to sleep in the one same place together? Because it provides an aura of safety, it's comforting, knowing there is a "buddy" there that has your back. It's not just about warmth (most of these pictures are taken in hot summer days!). This is one of the ways dogs can provide comfort, there are many others.

Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?
Not at all, unless of course you simply don't give affection at all. They are much too social to live a life of robotic non-affect.

First of all, welcome back, Kim. We have missed you.
 
I use -P, withholding of affection, to stop a behavior. When Shadow mouths, I roll my hand inward and turn my head. He stops and I rub his head.
 
I have given affection when he is skiddish. I kneel down and whisper "Pretty Boy" in his ear. That's what I whisper in his ear at home when he is sitting in my lap and nudging his head under my chin, which does functionally place my head over his. I do it it to cue the safe feeling he has at home and to let him know that he is safe with me, here, in this public place. It depends on the situation. Other times, not coddling, I will lead him to a distance that reduces the reactivity. And I certainly use affection to train.
 
And I agree that affection doesn't necessarily increase or foster more fear in a fearful episode. The affection is not rewarding the fear, per se. If you have ever experienced real fear, you will know what I mean. Affection had nothing to do with it. Certain fears may go away and others may not. The ones that go away do so because the meaning of that stimulus has been changed and the reaction is therefore changed.

First of all, welcome back, Kim. We have missed you.

 
Hey Ron, I'm glad to be back. Was super busy over the summer and took a hiatus from boards. It's nice to pop back into the realm of everything dog! []

Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?
This is something that is very dog dependent. I don't give in to the old adage that 'coddling a fearful dog will make it more fearful". Not at all. I have found throughout my life that with true phobias and fears (rather than just discomforts), you cannot reinforce fear, it's just not possible.

 
I agree. If I'm terrified of the snake, you patting me on the head isn't going to do diddly squat to my fear. If your dog is showing minor discomfort, you acting calm, soothing, and matter-of-fact can tell the dog it's not really something to be concerned about.
 
Unfortunately, however, some dogs learn that the best way to get attention from their owners is to act fearful or reactive. I'm not sure if the dog is actually fearful or is "faking it" for the sake of getting cuddles from mom. Kind of like the unfortunate dogs who learn that the most predictable way of getting attention is to "Be Bad".
 
 

Kind of like the unfortunate dogs who learn that the most predictable way of getting attention is to "Be Bad".

 
And, as I have found within my limited experience, the best way to cure the badness or "drama" is to only reward the lack of badness and to ignore the purposeful badness until it can extinguish.
 

Kind of like the unfortunate dogs who learn that the most predictable way of getting attention is to "Be Bad".

 
Oh my, talking about being bad or reinforcing bad habits. When our Kamara was a very young pup, at about 7 weeks of age, she had a traumatic injury to her eye. It required a long healing process and she had issues off and on for a long time. Even after the puppyhood injury healed, during times of stress sometimes the tear duct wouldn't produce enough tears and we'd have to supply synthetic tears for her to keep her eye moist. The point was she squinted a lot, much beyond normal for a dog. And of course my stepfather, who dotes on her, used to give her extra attention while she was healing. She since learned that she can consciously do this squinty thing with her same eye when she realllly wants something. She's such a con. She plays this whole "please feel bad for me" routine, like "look *squint*...Poor me! *squint squint* That piece of pizza will make me feel better *squint*. It's hilarious.

She since learned that she can consciously do this squinty thing with her same eye when she realllly wants something. She's such a con.

 
That reminds me of a story. A co-worker rescued a lab found contained in a pig pen on an abandoned farm. He he had left the dog out one night and a hailstorm commenced. He heard scratching on the door and let his dog in. The poor boy had some knots and bruises from the hailstones. So, in a fit of guilt, he gave the dog a tasty treat. I told he better watch out or the dog would start running into things on purpose. As in, "See, I got some more knots on my head." "Yeah, but the sun is shining and there's no hail." "So? Where's my steak? (pant)(pant)".