Affection...

You beat me to making this thread since it has been on my mind and I have posted my views recently.  I will also wait to see what others say before I comment.  Keep in mind that CM and his peers say that Affection should be an island, separated from any behavior, "share affection on your terms" (my characterization).  He and his peers also so say that Affection should be given only after a dog has changed the unwanted behavior into a behavior that you asked for.  CM says it is wrong to give affection "When your dog is fearful, anxious, possessive, dominant, aggressive, whining, begging, barking--or breaking any rule of your household".

It would also help if 'Affection" was defined and what constitutes giving affection from the giving of the human and the receiving from the dog.

Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?

Yes, I do.  When I got my dog she was very fearful and skittish.  It was very important to give her space, not shower her with affection.  We even had a few instances of her snarling and air snapping at strangers who made her feel cornered and were invading her personal space (they were trying to be affectionate, meant no harm, just didn't know better).  Now that we've given her some space and some time, she will ask for affection rather than us pushing ourselves on her.  She is still shy around DH, but sometimes she will come up to him and lick his face, so we give lots of praise and affection for this b/c that's the type of approach we want.  I withhold affection when she is offering fearful behaviors that are dangerous.  For example, last night she saw an empty box on a table and for some reason that scared her.  She tried to run and hide behind me, but since she was on a linoleum floor, she slipped and crashed, bumping into the table and chairs.  This made her even more upset!  I turned and backed against the counter so that she could not hide behind me, and I waited a second for her to calm down.  I could have let her hide and then coddled her, but what does that say?  "ooooo, it's OK!  That big bad box made you do this and it's my fault and the boxes fault, we are so sorry."  Um, no.  Her reaction to the box is what made her crash and flip out, she did that to herself.  Instead, I just said "sit!" and for some reason asking for a sit always redirects her back to reality and snaps her out of it.  Then I said "ooooo, good GIRL!!" and gave her a rub down.  At this point, the box fell on the floor in front of her, she sniffed it, and we walked away.  Mission accomplished!  I also withhold affection (and everything, really, no treats or eye contact) when she is acting fearful of DH.  As soon as she makes eye contact or steps towards him, we praise her, pet her, and treat her.  If we are out on a walk and something startles her, I will say "It's OK!"  just to show her that I'm not scared, I'm still cheerful, but I won't stop and coddle her or let her try to hide behind me


Use affection as a reward?

All of the time!  I have a dog that is not food motivated, toy motivated for about 30 second and then bored, so affection is her greatest reward.  She is a velcro dog that loves obedience more than all other activities, to praise, affection, and affirmation are what she needs.  She has a bad habit of jumping up on me (only me) so instead of yelling "no!" and pushing her off, I ask her to sit and wait, and then ask her to jump on me.  Now I can command something she really wants to do.  It's a win-win situation.  She loves to put her paws on my shoulders so she can lick my face and have me scratch her cheeks.  I like doing it too, just not when she's out of control.

Do you believe that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?

Yes, not only do I believe it, I KNOW it is true.  This is why my dog is/was fearful and skittish.  Something happened to her and her previous family did not understand how to help her.  They helped her as they would help a human - coddled her, babied her - and her fearfulness only got worse.  Their affection conditioned her fears.

Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?

No, but what I think is mean is only going halfway, only withholding the affection and never giving it.  If you withhold something in order to shape behaviors, you have to also give it when it's appropriate.  I believe that when doing any sort of training or behavior mod, you have to set up situations where the dog can and will succeed.  If you are trying to use flooding and it's not working so the dog never gets affection, that's not fair b/c you did too much too soon and you are making the dog more confused b/c there is no reward to show the dog what behavior is desired.  Like I said earlier, when Kenya starts acting nervous, I ignore her, but I don't just leave, I ask her to "sit" and when she does, I praise and give affection.  You can't always tell the dog what you don't want, you have to indicate what you DO want.  I use withholding affection lure the dog into offering what we do want and then showering her with affection.  How much you give or withhold affection will depend on the dog and the circumstance, but I have a very "operant" dog who has been trained using operant conditioning since her birth so it's her nature to offer new behaviors when nothing happens, therefore it works for me to withhold and then give affection b/c I create a situation where I know she will offer the behavior that earns affection.  I have worked with other dogs who were physically abused and neglected and with them I have to start a lot simpler, set the bar a lot lower, withhold affection for cowering but then give it the second they make eye contact or give a sniff in my direction.  So yeah, I don't think it's mean to use affection for NILF as long as you follow through and set the dog up for success. 

I also think that the human motives for showing affection can be too self-satisfying and mean nothing to the dog.  As far as the dog's brain is concerned, affection is just another means of communicating what is right.  I praise and pet my dog so often, the neighbors think I'm a nut, but this has been the most effective way of communicating my affirmation.

Of course, there are times when I do give affection for my own selfish reasons.  I ask Kenya to come sit on the couch or on the bed.  I walk up to her and pet her while she is sleeping.  These are things I do b/c I like doing them.  I'm not rewarding any particular behavior, other than that if she were to suddenly act fearful, I would stop and find a way to redirect her fear and then reward the result.

What I do think is mean is giving affection based on our own reasoning and not the way that science has proven dogs learn (classical and operant conditioning).  It would be mean for me to reward Kenya's fear with more affection.  Humans created and conditioned this fear in her, so as a human it's now my responsibility to help her get it own.  If I see she is fearful and don't intervene, that's mean.  I know how to redirect her (and by redirect I mean I ask for something I know she will give, NOT poke her neck or jerk on her collar) and snap her out of the fearful state.  I know that affection is not the cure.  So it would be mean for me to think that it is based on human reasoning.

Affection is used all the time as a reward. But u should not use it wrongly.In my experiences affection is a great tool in shaping a dogs behavior. However , fear behavior can be caused by all sorts of things and you would need to evaluate which fearful bahaviors need affection.

Which kinds of affection do you give for your own benefit, and which are for the dog?

I roughly break it down like this:

Some of the affection I give my dog is for me ... I pet her, coo at her, hug her, dote on her because it feels good to me. That's the selfish love part of my relationship with my dog, that I do for me. Doing these things lets me indulge in my feelings for my dog. (That's the kind of affection Millan cautions people to be careful with).

Some affection I give selflessly because it's part of my commitment to care for my dog: food, shelter, attention, mental and physical attention, treats, play, massage, grooming. These activities give my dog a pleasant and safe environment, a sense of belonging and purpose. The dog is cared for.

Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?
 
 Yes.  both
   
Use affection as a reward?

Yes

Do you believe that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?

Yes, I do not show affection or attention if the dog is displaying fear or some other undesired behavior

Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?

No our dogs cannot speak and they cannot understand our speech (other than words or phrases they know = a behavior we have rewarded in the past) and affection or showing that we are pleased with them is a key factor in our communication with them.
   
   I do not worry about always being the one to initiate affection. If I am relaxing and my dogs come up and lay their heads on my knee, I do pet them and I may invite them on the couch to relax with me. If they run up and leap on the couch while I am watching TV, I will tell them “off” and not offer affection and instead tell them to go lie down. It all depends on how they approach and I think that is key rather than the thought that anytime the dog approaches you for affection you should ignore them. If you are seen as the leader by your dogs and if you have their respect it will not do any harm at all to the relationship to offer affection both when they request it (providing their behavior is appropriate) and when you request it.
   I do not think that we need to always be the ones who initiate, we just need to be aware of the behavior the dog is exhibiting before we give affection, otherwise we can reinforce and reward behavior that is undesired.

Affection to me can mean many things: petting, massaging, just sitting with them lying next to you, speaking and talking silly talk, playing, treats, and praise.

a sense of belonging and purpose.

I'm not saying I disagree, but how do you think we can know whether a dog feels belonging or purpose, or whether a dog even needs to have these feelings to be happy?  "Belonging and purpose" make me think of Maslow's "hierarchy of needs", but I wonder if there's any evidence that his theory applies to dogs? (especially since more contemporary organizational behavior theories have shown it often doesn't even apply to humans)

ORIGINAL: Liesje

"Belonging and purpose" make me think of Maslow's "hierarchy of needs", but I wonder if there's any evidence that his theory applies to dogs? (especially since more contemporary organizational behavior theories have shown it often doesn't even apply to humans)

 
Don't know the answer if theory applies to dogs, but I do recognize Maslow's hierarchy theory of needs when doing training or modification techniques.  I don't like to tap into the lower needs of basic survival or instinct but would rather work from the higher level needs of socialization.  This is why I am not a big fan of food treats used as a driver to modify behavior although I do it.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Some affection I give selflessly because it's part of my commitment to care for my dog: food, shelter, attention, mental and physical attention, treats, play, massage, grooming. These activities give my dog a pleasant and safe environment, a sense of belonging and purpose. The dog is cared for.

 
Are you defining affection as "care" or saying affection is part of care like food, shelter, attention, etc.  This is where a definition of Affection would be very helpful.  From the above, one could assume using the approach of Calm and Assertive is affection. 

I love this thread! Liesje, I agree 100% with your post. That's exactly how and when and why I give affection, especially with my Shepherds. Thank you for writing that all out. It means I don't have to! []

With my guys, I treat each one somewhat differently, though.

Cara rarely asks for or requires affection so I have to remember to give it to her for just continuing to be so darn good. I KNOW she loves it because of her response to it, but it's easy to forget because she's so rarely in the limelight. So I initiate loving on her more often than I initiate it with the others. Also, when she asks for it, I most often oblige because she always behaves and she deserves it.

Mia is constantly demanding attention. She is my Omega dog and she's "needy" to a point of being obnoxious and annoying. She licks. I withhold from her to avoid rewarding her constant attempts to gain ALL my affection. But when I have the opportunity (she's doing something I want to reward, like sitting quietly by me without demanding attention), I slather it on. She's in heaven.

I have also taught B'asia and Jaia to "jump up" because they both love to do what Kenya does. When they do it after the command, I give them just what they came for. When they do it without the invitation, though, I do tell them No. Get down. And they do.

The affection I give for selfish reasons is vast and plenty. As I've said I spend LOTS of time with them and I'm a lovey, touchy-feely person. I LOVE to love on them. I hold each one of them in my lap and I LOVE the feel of a large dog in my arms. It's almost better than... chocolate! [sm=wink3.gif]

And I feel there are plenty of times when it's not just me giving and them receiving. It's sharing. They like to give me affection, too. They're not just in this for them. They love me and like to show me.

And like Ixas _girl, I also give it selflessly as part of my commitment to them. Massage falls under that category. It's not AS a reward and it's not for me (after massaging one dog, I've had enough!) but it's part of physically and emotionally caring for them.

ORIGINAL: DPU

CM says it is wrong to give affection "When your dog is fearful, anxious, possessive, dominant, aggressive, whining, begging, barking--or breaking any rule of your household".

 
Interesting posts, whenever a newbie comes in and has a similar problem as stated above, the response is always IGNORE, NO AFFECTION.  It seems that when it is our home and our dog, we are more flexible.

Do you give out/withhold affection to modify behavior?

all the time. It's one of your most powerful tools, especially with puppies.

 Use affection as a reward?

yes

 Do you belive that showing affection while a dog is reactive or fearful reinforces reactive and fearful behaviors?

yes

Do you think it's mean to use affection as a means of shaping behaviors?

no, I think using okes, choke collars, tight leashes, and alpha rolls to shape behavior is mean.
 

I don't tend to use it that much because one of my dogs doesn't really care that much about affection. It's not something that motivates him. If I had dogs who were irritating in their constant seeking of affection, I'd put it on a NILIF protocol, but I don't, so I don't. Conrad enjoys affection a lot, a lot more than Marlowe, but it's not a huge all-encompassing thing with him either. And he's rarely pushy about seeking it.

If a problem behavior seems to be all about demanding and forcing attention, then yes I recommend not giving it until the dog can come up with a more acceptable behavior. But witholding attention is not a cure-all for every dog. When I withold affection from Marlowe, he just gets up, goes into the other room, and has a nap.

Which kind of begs the question, what's the difference between affection and attention?

There was recent episode of "It's Me Or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell that had a really interesting approach regarding affection. Two women had out-of-control Old English Sheepdogs that they constantly had "cuddles" with. In addition to training and exercise, Victoria put them on a schedule for cuddles. One cuddle per person, per dog per day. She even made them a little chart. The owners where devastated at losing the cuddle time, but stated in the follow-up that they thought it was one of the most effective techniques.

Stillwell's philosophy on affection was based on pack-theory. She told the women that constantly approaching the dogs for attention was like puppies jumping all over an adult dog for food and attention and made the dogs think they were the leaders and the women were the followers. The dogs weren't trying to take over, but they just didn't have any respect for the "pups" they lived with. If you don't agree with pack theory, you could say that the women's affection was simply reinforcing the bad behavior. Either way, the management of affection played a big part in changing the dogs' behavior.

Which kind of begs the question, what's the difference between affection and attention?

That's a good question.  I see attention as eye contact, following (like if my dog play bows and runs...do I make eye contact and follow her?) and also as being attentive to basic needs like food, shelter, water, and potty breaks.  Affection for me is using physical touch or tone of voice for approval or comfort.  It's a little beyond just paying attention (eye contact) and giving an affirmative response (click-treat or "yes!").  I can affirm Kenya by simply saying "good girl!", but I can affirm and reward with affection by saying it more like "ooo, goooood GIRL, Kenya!  Yesss that was gooood!" *scritch scratch* 

Refering to my original questions, THAT is what I mean by affection.