ALPHA (word discussion)

i would use a leash, what would you if the dog only motivation is stay on the bed? he already ate so he is not hungry and rathers to stay comfortable on the bed that play with a toy, would you let your dog there and sleep on the couch?

 
The side effect, or somewhat of a general effect, of training with rewards is that he tends to listen to my command. I haven't had to touch him to make him move since the beginning of clicker training. He listens and heeds because it is rewarding. And part of dinner may have been during training. Just as Snownose and you are saying that you haven't had to use more than a slight tug, which could counted as a cue of touch to move a dog, I haven't had to touch him. Sometimes, I don't have to say anything. He just moves as I approach.

I think what is wrong with this Alpha talk is that it narrowly considers the true group dynamics of a family, the mixture of humans and dogs, including their developmental stages - ages.
 
You can have a dog trained, and following your direction, but what about how he/she behaves with other members in the family?   

You can have a dog trained, and following your direction, but what about how he/she behaves with other members in the family

 
All members of the family must be aware of the training, so that everyone is consistent in how they treat the dog. Also, since exhibiting the desired behavior is rewarding, it is more likely to happen as the dog seeks a reward. And a general side effect is that the dog is more likely to heed command because it means roast beef rather than a spanking.
 
That being said, your bop on the head of your male husky may have been a strong enough +P to correct his notion that he needed to decide the order of who sits where. That's the tricky thing about +P. It has to be strong enough and quick enough to stop the behavior in one or two tries. From your description, it sounds like you had great reflexes and timing.
 
But for all of us, or even Fouriscompany, we can't always be there to correct or re-direct. So, it is better to aim the training at a general rule of life that all members will get along. I mean, you have to go to the bathroom at some time.
 

It truly was a tap on his behind with the paperback I was reading.Yes, it was a very quick timing/event.  And it was a unique situation where it was the end of a very long vacation ...
 
I don't even usually touch his collar to get him to obey and prior to this, he has never exhibited this behavior.  Which is also an aspect dog caretakers need to know.  There will always be  a potential for an unexpected sitch.  
 
My boy is a wonderful dog.  And the children are very good at caring for the two dogs.  They have learned along side the pets we have owned in the past, but ages, and developmental stages of both children and dogs have a huge bearing on the mechanics and relationships with in the family. 
 
It really is fascinating and also complicated.  Also, it seems a natural process.
 

corvus......did it occur to you that the dog might have been afraid at the top of the stairs, and just didn't want to take that ride one more time?

ORIGINAL: ron2

The side effect, or somewhat of a general effect, of training with rewards is that he tends to listen to my command. I haven't had to touch him to make him move since the beginning of clicker training. He listens and heeds because it is rewarding. And part of dinner may have been during training. Just as Snownose and you are saying that you haven't had to use more than a slight tug, which could counted as a cue of touch to move a dog, I haven't had to touch him. Sometimes, I don't have to say anything. He just moves as I approach.

 
Ok you asked me what would happen if my dog growls even if i'm calm, my dog does not growl at me and i dont even have to touch her to make her get out of the bed but i still answered your question
 
I know that your dog responds to treats but you didnt answer my question, so again:
 
what would you if the dog only motivation is stay on the bed? he already ate so he is not hungry and rathers to stay comfortable on the bed that play with a toy, would you let your dog there and sleep on the couch?
 
 

Thats my point, just because dogs dont remove other dogs that does not mean humans should not do it, just like dogs dont tell dogs to go out to pee, that does not mean humans should not house break the dog

 
yes, exactly. But most humans do realize they have to gradually train dogs to not-pee in the house, but they completely fail to realize they have to train dogs to get off furniture. Then they are shocked when they get growled at or bit. A failing of humans, not dogs.

what would you if the dog only motivation is stay on the bed? he already ate so he is not hungry and rathers to stay comfortable on the bed that play with a toy, would you let your dog there and sleep on the couch?

 
After you are done with the training phase you need not offer the dog a reward every time. I can't remember the last time I offered a reward to one of my dogs for getting off the couch on command. The dog responds out of habit and conditioning.
 
And if they failed to obey, I would not go and grab a collar and forcibly drag the dog off the couch - I'd realize my training hadn't been as good as it should have been, vow to start training over again tomorrow, and then I'd run around the room waving my arms in excitement and then run out the door squealing like a pig. Every dog in the house would be chasing after me within seconds to see what was afoot.

And if they failed to obey, I would not go and grab a collar and forcibly drag the dog off the couch - I'd realize my training hadn't been as good as it should have been, vow to start training over again tomorrow, and then I'd run around the room waving my arms in excitement and then run out the door squealing like a pig. Every dog in the house would be chasing after me within seconds to see what was afoot.

 
 
Is that how you would handle it if you were at the vet's office with a skittish rescue, trying to unload the dog?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

yes, exactly. But most humans do realize they have to gradually train dogs to not-pee in the house, but they completely fail to realize they have to train dogs to get off furniture. Then they are shocked when they get growled at or bit. A failing of humans, not dogs.

 
And its the same with behaviorists methods, what made you think you can just come and take your dog off the bed without you being setting rules boundries and limitations from way before?
 
You need to do the same with ANY method, you cant expect ANY method to work if you wait untill you have the dog biting your hand
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: ron2
As Fouriscompany offered a case where she felt +R would not work...

Hey ron? This isn't true at all. [sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]  I asked, in good faith, for input from the +R ONLY camp on how to handle a practical example of a problem issue. I never said or indicated that I felt +R would not work. I REALLY don't like being misquoted. Tnanks so much. []

Reference thread:
http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=440882

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I know that your dog responds to treats but you didnt answer my question, so again:

what would you if the dog only motivation is stay on the bed? he already ate so he is not hungry and rathers to stay comfortable on the bed that play with a toy, would you let your dog there and sleep on the couch?

 
My apologies. I wasn't clear enough. Because I train with rewards, he listens to me. I control the resources, I get the seat I want. There is not a case of him motivated by a desire to stay put that is greater than the brisket we just finished. BTW, when I need him to move, I don't usually have a treat in my hand which, I know, ruins my image as a treat-dispensing butler []. That is, it doesn't occur to him to not give up the space. Whatever I want him to do leads to great rewards. That is the generalization I am talking about. And with him, there's no such thing as too much brisket, steak, whatever the jackpot is, though most of the time I train with these little baked treats.
 
Another good example, just a few moments ago. I went outside with him. The Border Collies and Healer mix are back in town, diagonal from us. Then there's the Dachshund next door. They are all barking at a person walking down the street. Shadow would normally join the barkfest. So I watched him. He looked like he was going to bark a few times. But he stopped and looked at me. I called "here" and he recalled instantly. Without a treat in my hand. Because, at random times, he knows he will get one for obeying. Done long enough, reward training becomes pavlovian, a conditioned response.
 
On a hypothetical dog, I would lure with a reward to get off the bed. Same program. Given time, the dog will obey because it is more rewarding to get a piece of meat from me than to contest wills. If that didn't work at first, he would not be allowed bed privileges until he would listen. That means closing doors and not allowing access, etc. etc.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

If that didn't work at first, he would not be allowed bed privileges until he would listen. That means closing doors and not allowing access, etc. etc.

Thats what i'm asking about, in the mean time, at that moment, how do you take the dog off the bed???? that night would you sleep on the couch? Mudpuppy already gave her option but i know you could think about something different to do than her, i have to tell you the truth, if you tell me that you would do the same i will feel a little bit dissapointed that you were not able to think about another option []

dissapointed that you were not able to think about another option

I did think of another option. I could do what Mud Puppy would do but I could do it naked. How's that for a mental image?[sm=evilfire.gif]

Seriously, though, what she means is to find a way to gain the interest of the dog. My brother-in-law and his family have a Blue Merle Aussie. She lives to herd and cut, as one would need in vaccinating or examing sheep. With Cassie, they have a ball. I have watched her, exhausted and panting and want to rest, go after that ball one more time because our nephew threw it. And I guarantee that if she was on the bed and didn't want to move, you could throw that ball and she would go after it. Take it one step further and say floor. When she gets off the bed, throw the ball and let her herd and cut it. Something that intrigues and interests the dog. There are times when we have to leave and Shadow doesn't want to go outside. But lunchmeat or some pungent piece of meat will get him out there, even when he's tired.

ETA:
And maybe this brings us back to the meaning of alpha or leader. In some way, we are leading by directing our dogs to do what we want, rather than all decisions left to them.

. There are times when we have to leave and Shadow doesn't want to go outside. But lunchmeat or some pungent piece of meat will get him out there, even when he's tired.

Here is where it makes a left turn for me again.......do I need to rip out the lunchmeat  for my dogs to move?

My dogs always follow when I go outside, even when they were asleep.......no lunchmeat involved.