ALPHA (word discussion)

I assume the dog would escalate the threat, possibly up to an inhibited bite. Would NOT physically drag dog off bed. Wouldn't recommend a human try to deliver a dog style threat to a dog-- people physically can't do it.
 
I personally have never seen a dog threaten another dog to get the dog to move off a bed.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I assume the dog would escalate the threat, possibly up to an inhibited bite. Would NOT physically drag dog off bed. Wouldn't recommend a human try to deliver a dog style threat to a dog-- people physically can't do it.

I personally have never seen a dog threaten another dog to get the dog to move off a bed.

 
I personally have never seen a dog telling another dog to go outside to pee [8D]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
This is absolutely untrue. Even the most primitive human societies have incredibly complicated social structures and well-established ideas about what is rude and what is not. And being "rude" is not taken lightly in any society

You missed the point. "Rude" implies offense. How can I take offense unless I operate out of ego, out of a self identity that values personal sovereignty. Your assumptions that such things have always been understood in human subjectivity is based on our contemporary understanding of personality structure, and the modernist ideals of individuality.

Of course societies of animals, including man, have structure, rules and hierarchies. Mom wolves/dogs/chimps/elephants certainly teach their babies social behaviors. But to assume the motivations are based in egocentric perspective is to project content onto animals, IMO.

have you ever seen a dog walk up to and grab another dog by a body part and physically drag the other dog off a bed?

Yes. Numerous times. I've seen tugging, nudging, and displacement by sitting right on top of other dogs. The displaced dog either relents, with no apparent "scarring", or resists obstinately, perhaps with growling and snapping (which is then interrupted, and the pushy dog is sent off). I never saw a dog take this behavior personally, as if "insulted." Of course, it's far more common for a dog to displace another through presence, eye contact, or other subtler behaviors.

The idea that a dog would perceive being physically moved as "rude" rather than simply as a human's "privilege" of being the boss, has no basis, for me.

The number of people who report being growled at or bitten when engaging in this activity strongly suggests you are wrong.

Or it suggests that the leadership position of the people getting bitten wasn't established. []

I think morality is well and good and simply a part of human consciousness. But I think there are other motivators for behavior, in all animals, including man. Some of these are very much more pragmatic, cooperative, and apparently unpopular. [sm=biggrin.gif]

We were on vacation and my male Siberian was feeling a little couped up.  While watching tv on the bed, the big male, me, daughter and then my little Siberian female hopped up.  The male got an attitude and kind of went after female husky.  She went up around my head like a cat, Daughter said, No to him and he went a little nasty to her too!  Without thinking I bopped him with my paperback book, not hard but just firm and said get down.... 

So, what do you think of those mechanics?
 
editing in here:  The male did get right down. He did appear to look guilty, head hung low- after being chastised and put off the bed by me!  And the female did certainly exhibit a cowering hurt feeling that her brother husky would be so mean and not allow her her usual spot on the bed.  She never gets up around my head and neck like that.  Wish I had a film of it all. 
 
Also this is an 1X occurence.  So, not sure how one may interpret status, but to me, it is about teaching and learning.  The dogs must behave and be civil just like the people in the family.

I personally have never seen a dog telling another dog to go outside to pee

 
That seems to me to be a bit of a non-sequitur. MP is saying that she has never seen a dog grab another dog by the collar or body part to remove them from a spot. A dog may simply approach and the other dog allows the transition. Or may not, returning a growl or stare, such as an old dog not wanting to be bothered by a rambunctious younger dog. To echo MP, I have yet to see Shadow physically grab and remove Jade off of the double recliner. He will find room for himself up there or he will lay down elsewhere. If he's already up there, she may get up there but she may not trample all over him. FWIW, I don't tell Shadow when to go to the bathroom. He lets me know. So, I was a bit confused by your reply.
 

The male did get right down. He did appear to look guilty, head hung low- after being chastised and put off the bed by me!

 
well, you'd just hit him. Attacked him. Guess what, dogs don't feel guilt-- when people look at them and see "guilty" what you are actually seeing is a dog offering you "placating" signals: he's saying "please don't hurt me".
 
I don't know what your dogs were up to at the time since I wasn't there to observe their body language. Playing maybe. Maybe just some cranky arguing.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

I personally have never seen a dog telling another dog to go outside to pee

That seems to me to be a bit of a non-sequitur. MP is saying that she has never seen a dog grab another dog by the collar or body part to remove them from a spot. A dog may simply approach and the other dog allows the transition. Or may not, returning a growl or stare, such as an old dog not wanting to be bothered by a rambunctious younger dog. To echo MP, I have yet to see Shadow physically grab and remove Jade off of the double recliner. He will find room for himself up there or he will lay down elsewhere. If he's already up there, she may get up there but she may not trample all over him. FWIW, I don't tell Shadow when to go to the bathroom. He lets me know. So, I was a bit confused by your reply.

 
Thats my point, just because dogs dont remove other dogs that does not mean humans should not do it, just like dogs dont tell dogs to go out to pee, that does not mean humans should not house break the dog

Thats my point, just because dogs dont remove other dogs that does not mean humans should not do it, just like dogs dont tell dogs to go out to pee, that does not mean humans should not house break the dog

 
I understand better. Now, will a dog put up with manhandling from a human that it would see as rude in another dog? If so, how does the dog differentiate the intent?

I understand better. Now, will a dog put up with manhandling from a human that it would see as rude in another dog? If so, how does the dog differentiate the intent?

 
 
Specify manhandling.
 
Imo, if a dog is used to human touch, it is conditioned to the touch, so, the dog will not feel overpowered or pushed around as some hands off folks would like to call it.[]

ORIGINAL: ron2

I understand better. Now, will a dog put up with manhandling from a human that it would see as rude in another dog? If so, how does the dog differentiate the intent?

 
Have you hear the term "calm assertive"? [] If you go to your dog on a calm way the dog will know you are not ther to hurt, take advantage, etc, Now if you approach with a attitude like "you dog son of the devil i have tell you tons of times to get off my bed and you keep doing it, i will give you away" then dont be surprise if your dog bites you [8D] 
 
Now if you let your dog get away with growling at you and you stepping back then it does not matter what kind of attitude you have, the dog will know that with just "acting out" a little bit that will make you go away (so he can keep enjoying the warm human bed)
 
All those changes wont happen overnight, you need to work yourself up to the "leader" position (if you start from puppyhood that is the best time) so you are able to remove your dog by the collar without him seeing you as "rude" or "threat", if you just let the dog walk all over you his entire life and one day you decide is enough and you will remove the dog away probably thats not going to happen

I don't know what your dogs were up to at the time since I wasn't there to observe their body language. Playing maybe. Maybe just some cranky arguing.

 
Only the male was cranky.  The female did definately look afraid of him.  Normally I would not have bothered with anything more than telling him No, and get down.  But my daughter told him NO and he went after HER! And in the same bullying manner.  It was the first time he had ever done this, and it did take me by surprise.
 
I never am rough with my animals and although it may sound terrible that I tapped him with the book, I needed to stop this little sitch.    The dog needs to know he may not go after my children.  
 
 
 
 
 

"you dog son of the devil i have tell you tons of times to get off my bed and you keep doing it, i will give you away"

I'm not sure, for or against, if my dog can read my mind. I think I'd have to comb my hair a different way to convey the above quoted "energy." ( like this:[sm=elvis.gif]) If both me and the dog are being calm-assertive, who shall out-calm-assertive the other? I get the point about not being intimidated by the dog. Any and all creatures operate by motivation. Motivation to gain a reward, motivation to avoid a correction or unpleasant stimulus. And no, at this point, we're not talking about giving the collar a yank with my entire body weight. But what if you grab the collar and the dog growls or snarls? A couple of tsst's? Are you then going to prove your alpha status and how? By overpowering the dog? And yes, some dogs may get used to that and not see it as a threat or discomfort. A lot of dog interaction is actually placation, or offering signals of non-combativeness, as well as offering signals of challenge to guage the response of others?

As Fouriscompany offered a case where she felt +R would not work, I would ask you what would you do if the dog did not respect the calm-assertive look and growled or got irritated the more you grabbed the collar?
 
ETA: No, a tug on the collar or nudge on the tush is not harsh and maybe nothing more than a directional.

. But what if you grab the collar and the dog growls or snarls?

I have not experienced this other than by a rescue, the dog was abused, and we worked through many years of getting passed that......but, my dogs that were brought up from puppyhood have never growled at me when grabbed by the collar, even other dogs that were fine with being handled never growled....if I was afraid of that I would have serious issues with handling my dogs in everyday life, like when being unloaded from vehicles, or when we are at the vet....and so on.

ORIGINAL: ron2

I would ask you what would you do if the dog did not respect the calm-assertive look and growled or got irritated the more you grabbed the collar?

i would use a leash, what would you if the dog only motivation is stay on the bed? he already ate so he is not hungry and rathers to stay comfortable on the bed that play with a toy, would you let your dog there and sleep on the couch?

ORIGINAL: snownose

I understand better. Now, will a dog put up with manhandling from a human that it would see as rude in another dog? If so, how does the dog differentiate the intent?

Specify manhandling.

Imo, if a dog is used to human touch, it is conditioned to the touch, so, the dog will not feel overpowered or pushed around as some hands off folks would like to call it.[]

I refute and deny this. My dog is very conditioned to human touch. Over the years, I've worked on getting her comfortable with me touching her anywhere. But I always allowed her the choice to get up and leave if she felt she'd had enough. I don't want my own dog to feel uncomfortable around me. As comfortable as she is with me touching her, though, she's not comfortable with me lifting her up and I don't think she ever will be. A few weeks ago she came to stay with us in our third floor unit. The stairs were too hard for her, so I was carrying her up and down everytime we went anywhere. After this happened a few times, she got skittish at the top of the stairs and balked at being touched by me. Guess she was feeling overpowered and pushed around. She's an independent girl and she appreciates the choice to be touched or not to be touched. I'm happy to oblige her wherever I can, because this relationship is not a one-way street.

Ron, I think that's a good point. Something tells me a dog would not be offended if another dog told it to go out and pee.

I have seen a dog tell another dog to sit/stay! Wish I could achieve the same kind of results that dog was achieving! []