ALPHA (word discussion)

They dont care because you taught them from puppyhood thats how it is in YOUR world, not the "dogs world", if you teach from puppyhood that you can take things away then they will think thats how it is in this earth

 
yeah, exactly. We play trade games from early puppyhood and they happily give up stuff TO HUMANS. and they get trained to happily jump off furniture on command. But most people don't do this, and then they wonder why they get snapped at when they try to forcibly remove the dog from the bed-- it's a normal dog behavior they neglected to modify.
 

Just so we all know, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I really mean that we have different goals with our dogs and that's entirely ok with me. I was trying to understand MP based on MY goals, which are clearly different than hers.

 
I really doubt we have different goals. Here's a list of "normal" dog behaviors I, and suspect you, try to train out of your dogs:  jumping up on people when greeting; pulling on the leash; peeing in the house; chewing on the furniture; mouthing people in play; resource guarding; chasing and killing cats; charging out the door the second it is opening; barking hysterically at people walking past the house or car; eating garbage they find in the street; running up to every dog they see; taking food off the kitchen counter; the list is endless.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Call it resource guarding, call it dominance, call it a bad hair day, the issue is still the same. He is telling me that he does not respect me at that moment nor does he think I am in a position to ask him to vacate the bed.

no, this is not a respect issue. He is acting like a "normal" dog and is telling you that you being really rude by dog rules, and he is also telling you that you haven't trained him well enough.
Your response should be to work harder at training him to jump off the bed on command, not to "make him respect you".
Using force on a dog who is resource guarding usually makes the problem worse.

there is that force word again...... did I state some where that I was going to grab him sling him on the ground and kick him around? I believe I said I would remove him from the bed (I guess that automatically means hang him by his collar and sling him on the floor). Communication is difficult with everything always being taken to the extreme.
 
 Both my dogs are very abnormal as they never do this. Most of the oints that you bring up do not seem to apply in my experience so you and I obviously live in very different worlds. I strongly disagree on the respect issue although I will say that not every issue of a dog (any dog) growling at you is about respect. There is fear, there is resource guarding and there is disrespect to leadership.
 
 I think you and I will have to agree to disagree
 

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

What word(s) do you think would be more appropriate to describe what I mean by alpha?

"Top-dog". This term deliberately excludes humans.

Or do you think the position simply does not exist in the dog world?

I don't think it exists in the sense that many people believe it exists. I think it exists in the sense that there's always one animal in a social group that is confident and outgoing and expects to get what they want. I see the same thing in a group of kids, but I don't think there is an alpha kid. Group dynamics change everytime you change group membership, and sometimes when you don't.

Do you have a word or phrase that describes your relationship to your dogs?

I'm the magic demi-god that can do all sorts of wondrous things a dog can't imagine. Interestingly, Pyry gets a very smug look about him when one of his humans brings home a live prey animal, or a whole heap of fresh meat. He gets this look that seems to say "My humans are so great. They can pull birds out of nowhere and produce fresh meat out of nothing, AND, they give it to me sometimes." He truly struts when he's thinking about how magic people are.

If you don't use the word (or idea of) "dominance", and don't believe that humans can be grouped in the social order of the dog's world, what would you say about a dog who growls, snaps at or even bites the human when the human tries to make him get off the bed?

As others have stated, I don't think this is a dominance issue. This is an issue of "It's mine and I don't want to give it away", which is perfectly understandable. My dog would give up just about anything to avoid a stern word from me, but that's not especially normal. I think escalation of signals is all about working out who wants it more. Maybe I ask nicely and my dog gives me a cute look and does nothing, so then maybe I tighten my jaw, and maybe she still does nothing, but grumbles or whines to herself, maybe then I make my voice harder and sharper and add a sharp gesture. My dog recognises these signals and realises I mean it and it's not worth getting in trouble for, so she complies. But then, maybe it's something really good that is worth getting in trouble for. Maybe it's something so good she'll defend her right to keep it. I've seen her snap at cats that got too close to something she prized very highly, but most of the time, she ignores cats and has been taught from puppyhood that she mustn't hurt them. I've also seen her snap at Kit for getting too close to her for comfort, but if he doesn't get in her space, she ignores him, mostly.

What's going on when a dog KNOWS what the human means, but doesn't do what they say?

Testing. Every dog wonders at some point what would happen if they didn't do what the human was asking. They all try it out to see if they can get away with it. Penny knows very well who means business and who can be safely ignored. She works that out as fast as she can. It behooves her to know who she can push to get what she wants and who will push her.

Incidentally, my dog sometimes needs a touch on the butt to get her to get off the couch. Often I don't even need to make contact. It's the promise of contact if she doesn't move that makes her move. Just because I never would shove her off and never have doesn't mean I can't pretend like I would and still achieve the same results. Of course, it all falls apart if you've got a daring dog that calls your bluff. [] I'm hoping to leave these games behind with my next dog. We'll see how I do.

Mudpuppy did not accuse you of yanking and hanging your dog off the bed and then drop-kicking him/her. However, you place hands on the dog and physically move them off the bed. That is use of force. There are other ways of stopping that. Forbid access to that room. Increase rewards in training off or leave it or whatever the command is. And do it a bunch of times. Or don't allow them on the bed, ever. For that, I think it depends on each individual dog. If a dog tends to increase his boundaries, such as deciding not to get off the bed, then he must lose that privilege (-P). And you may simply have to wait until he gets off that bed and then close off access.
 
As opposed to physically removing the dog by sliding, picking up, or grabbing by the collar to pull them off the bed, which is use of force. That is, Mudpuppy's statement did not include a value judgement that you were applying maximum Leerburg force.
 

I do not currently have an Alpha dog as my two fluctuate a lot. Now Hektor is only 7months old and has taken over some things, yet others he still defers to Gunnar. I am willing to bet that with his confident attitude (he is my bull in a china shop dog) he will wear the dog pants exclusively soon

 
It sounds like you have living proof right there that "alpha" is a slippery concept at best and that the dog that appears to lead changes with the context of various situations. And by alpha, I don't mean a physical dominant dog bullying others or even the one in control of resources. Lead dogs often give up a valued resource if it doesn't interest them at the time. Just the same, the other dogs may defer to them. Then again, dogs are individuals, subject to different personalities. Same with cats. Jade is quite different than my old cat, Misty.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Mudpuppy did not accuse you of yanking and hanging your dog off the bed and then drop-kicking him/her. However, you place hands on the dog and physically move them off the bed. That is use of force. There are other ways of stopping that. Forbid access to that room. Increase rewards in training off or leave it or whatever the command is. And do it a bunch of times. Or don't allow them on the bed, ever. For that, I think it depends on each individual dog. If a dog tends to increase his boundaries, such as deciding not to get off the bed, then he must lose that privilege (-P). And you may simply have to wait until he gets off that bed and then close off access.

As opposed to physically removing the dog by sliding, picking up, or grabbing by the collar to pull them off the bed, which is use of force. That is, Mudpuppy's statement did not include a value judgement that you were applying maximum Leerburg force.

 
There may be other ways, use them with my blessing, my way works well for me and for my dogs, and force is not what I use you truly have no clue and I am beginning to think we are from completely different planets, possibly even different species entirely.
 
Force:

            The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power: the force of an explosion.
 

Power made operative against resistance; exertion: use force in driving a nail.
The use of physical power or violence to compel or restrain: a confession obtained by force.
The word force implies violence. I “forced” you off the road. He “forced me to give up my wallet.” etc. or very strong energy “ She is a force to be reckoned with”. “The storm came through with great force”.
 
   I do not want to insult anyone although many times I feel insulted, now is one of them. I feel like I have attempted to understand and to be understood. I still feel as if many of you see everything that some others and I say as archaic and cruel. You have no clue, you do not know me, and you do not know my dogs. If we are so behind the times, so archaic, so clueless and so cruel then it seems that we would not be here on a forum dedicated to dogs, nor would our dogs be the well mannered canines that they are. If I were so ignorant it would seem I would not waste my time attempting to establish some kind of middle gound. On the other hand perhaps the amount of time I have invested shows my ignorance.
 
 I wish you well. Pardon me while I go and abuse my dogs by forcing them to sit and watch me prepare dinner.
 
Moderators please note how I walk upon the eggshells so well. [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=427139&mpage=11&key]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=427139&mpage=11&key[/link]=
 
please note, references to other planets and species is not meant as an insult, it is only to demonstrate that understanding and common ground appears to be impossible.

ORIGINAL: ron2

I do not currently have an Alpha dog as my two fluctuate a lot. Now Hektor is only 7months old and has taken over some things, yet others he still defers to Gunnar. I am willing to bet that with his confident attitude (he is my bull in a china shop dog) he will wear the dog pants exclusively soon

It sounds like you have living proof right there that "alpha" is a slippery concept at best and that the dog that appears to lead changes with the context of various situations. And by alpha, I don't mean a physical dominant dog bullying others or even the one in control of resources. Lead dogs often give up a valued resource if it doesn't interest them at the time. Just the same, the other dogs may defer to them. Then again, dogs are individuals, subject to different personalities. Same with cats. Jade is quite different than my old cat, Misty.

 
if you read my posts you would see that I have not attempted to defend the notion of Alpha dogs. I believe in the very first post I stated "IMO dogs do have a social order and positions within that social order and depending on the circumstances and the dog these positions fluctuate. " .

ORIGINAL: dgriego
I wish you well. Pardon me while I go and abuse my dogs by forcing them to sit and watch me prepare dinner.

Yeah, and give 'em a good kick while you're at it. []
Oh, and I'll go leash pop mine for no good reason, too! [sm=whip.gif]

[sm=biggrin.gif]

Kidding aside, I hear you. It is very frustrating to be sensitive, in-tune, interested, and loving with your companion animal(s), then come to a place to share that good will, only to feel that your relationship is completely misrepresented back to you.

I, personally, very much appreciate your contributions to this forum, and the discussion you started here. "Alpha" is a loaded word on this forum, and has been combed through many times .... weirdly enough, sometimes, with some of the exact same verbiage. [&o]

I, also personally, don't know where this idea that dogs have "manners" and find us "rude" comes from! Do they have a secret chivalrous code or pretensions to civility that no one told me about!? [sm=asking03.gif] [] (Seriously, where does that come from?)

Like you, dgriego, I am very comfortable handling my dog, and would push her off the bed if for some reason she decided to not go herself. But, I, spend a lot of time being hands-on with my dog. I use sounds, words, hands, a leg, a smile, whistles and gestures a lot with my dog. She's comfortable with my body, I'm comfortable with hers. I suspect you're like that and others here describe that kind of relationship, too.

I wouldn't be able to live with another species without being the lead animal ... whatever you call it. I'm just not as agreeable and easy going as companion animals are. [sm=proud.gif] I'm the one who decides stuff, I'm the one my dog looks to. Yep. The alpha, top dog, queen, CEO, boss, king of fools, commanding officer, el presidente, chairperson, owner and proprieter, warden, mistress, pope, director. Doesn't mean I'm not also loving, empathetic, sensitive, touchy-feely, generous, fair, and good!

ORIGINAL: dgriego
I feel like I have attempted to understand and to be understood. I still feel as if many of you see everything that some others and I say as archaic and cruel. You have no clue, you do not know me, and you do not know my dogs.

Can I just repeat this from me?

I have honestly been curious and hopeful to reach a point of mutual respect, but some people are just not having it. It's just not being accepted as offered. It's their way or the hiway. That's why I gave up this thread until I saw your post just now. Some people can accept those who are different than them and some just can't. That's cool. I'm not offended. I refuse to be offended by someone else's fantasy. And I'm not going to change anything about myself or my language so they'll feel more comfortable. It's truly not my problem.

I can show you any picture of my dogs ever taken and I challenge anyone to call them abused or ANYTHING less than doted on. They are the happiest, most loved, most contented dogs I know. People think I'm crazy with them. They are the center of my world. And I'll not take on the guilt being served up like grool here.

I don't believe my dogs get offended or think others are "rude" or are concerned about manners any more than they do things for spite or are jealous. That's called anthropomorphizing. Regardless how much some want them to be little people, I assure you, they don't care whether I call them my pack or my dogs, and they don't give a flip whether I call myself mommy or alpha. I'm "the one". That's about as far as their thinking on that goes.

And let me also make it clear that I'm not at all angry. I just don't see a need for me to further try to reach across to come to understanding when it's clear not everyone wants that. I accept the way everyone wants to raise their dogs. I honestly believe everyone here has their dogs' best interests at heart. And I'm sure your dogs love you very much.

Alpha of my pack, []

Carla

Four

I am as ever amazed by your grace and composure. I tend to allow my irritation to come out, regardless of how much I try it still seeps between the lines. This and other posts of yours have stated what I would like to say in a much nicer more eloquent manner. I applaud you. You would not believe the wrestling match I had with myself over the choice of words to use. Fortunately my better self won but even so you say it well and it comes out polite and friendly. Thank you for your post

Ixas_girl

After forcing my dogs to watch me eat tacos when they enjoyed only dry kibble, and then forcing them to lie on the couch with their heads in my lap, I decided to disrupt their rest (my I am sinister) and force them to have a long stroll around the neighborhood. Due to my insistent torture they are both laid out on the floor at my feet snoring away. I feel somewhat better after our exertion and would like to thank you for your comments and state that I concur. I shall not give up hope entirely, but for now I am taking a break as temporary bridge builder.

Ron and Mud,

I wish you well, I truly do. I am sure the method you use works well for you and I am happy for you and your dogs. My methods work well for me and my dogs are very well taken care of I assure you. They have a life that many people in the world would envy. I even envy them at times. I am not upset (I was irritated, but I am over it) but I am over the bridging the gap and trying to reach understanding. I truly do believe that many are just too tied up in knots over CM and his methods (who has nothing to do with me or my dogs nor is he responsible for my training methods, as I had them long before he ever had a program)to see past words to the people and dogs on the other side.

Ack Hektor is on the bed! Gotta go sling him off!!!!                        Just kidding

the KISS concept (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

love it - lol

this might be worthy of a new topic when it comes to working with dogs, i dunno, lemme give ya credit for the title and open it up for discussion.

I don't think anyone has accused anyone of abusing their dogs through excessive use of force lately. As I said in a recent thread, I don't like using force in particular circumstances and that's a personal choice. However, just because I and some other people don't like to use force doesn't somehow change the meaning of it. Force can be physical, but it can also be mental. I can force my dog to obey by putting on a stern tone. If I do anything that leaves my dog no choice, I've forced my dog. Sometimes I do leave her no choice, when her safety comes into it, and when she's breaking golden rules that have been set in stone since puppyhood.

Force doesn't have to be a bad thing, but let's be honest with what it does mean. When applied to another being, it means leaving no choice. If you physically push your dog off the couch, that's using force, even if it has no negative impact on your dog whatsoever. When I get my dog off the couch by looming over her, speaking sternly, and touching her lightly, I'm using force as well even though I'm not physically pushing her off the couch, because in her mind I've just used the signals I have developed to tell her there is no choice.

So, from my perspective at least, when you tell me you use force sometimes, I don't immediately assume that means you jerk your dog around on the leash and hang them or whatever. I think everyone here realises that there are times you need force. Where we differ is in when we decide it's one of those times and how much force is required. Just because some of us try to avoid it wherever possible does not mean we think anyone who doesn't do the same is somehow a bad dog owner and mean to their dogs. All it is is a personal style.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I, also personally, don't know where this idea that dogs have "manners" and find us "rude" comes from! Do they have a secret chivalrous code or pretensions to civility that no one told me about!? [sm=asking03.gif] [] (Seriously, where does that come from?)

I believe that comes from the dog's mother. I haven't had a lot to do with mother dogs, but everything I've seen suggests to me that mum goes a long way to teaching dogs what is a good way to behave and what is a bad way by dog standards. Once they leave mum, they continue to learn dog manners from other well-socialised dogs. You should see how outraged my dog gets when a particularly under-socialised dog barks at her. She seems to get offended by such things, whereas a well-socialised dog merely barking a warning from its yard will be ignored.

i guess one could encapsulate the physical force or the mental (tonal) force with 2 words - projected energy.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I, also personally, don't know where this idea that dogs have "manners" and find us "rude" comes from! Do they have a secret chivalrous code or pretensions to civility that no one told me about!? [sm=asking03.gif] [] (Seriously, where does that come from?)

If you accept the basic concept that dogs are social creatures ---conscious of social hierarchy---then why not a code of conduct and civility? A social hierarchy would almost seem to require it. And where does the idea that this code of chivalry or pretensions to civility doesn't exist?